Sdkfz. 251/22 Paktrak

[4kEY]

I'm considering putting this unit in the transport section starting in 1942, with the same attack as the 7.5cm Pak40. What I'd like to do is simulate that a battalion of infantry could have a few Sdkfz armed with anti-tank guns to take care of business in an emergency... I don't want to throw the balance, yet they are already highly vulnerable with a defence of 3.

I'm interested to know how others have implemented this unit into their game. I'd also like to hear opinions from people who haven't.

I added two of them to the anti-tank section, 5cm (even though I can't find that they actually mounted a 5cm on Sdkfz 251) and 7.5. The 5cm becomes available a few months into Barbarossa, the 7.5 shortly after its towed counterpart.

[Chris10]

I'm considering putting this unit in the transport section starting in 1942, with the same attack as the 7.5cm Pak40. What I'd like to do is simulate that a battalion of infantry could have a few Sdkfz armed with anti-tank guns to take care of business in an emergency... I don't want to throw the balance, yet they are already highly vulnerable with a defence of 3.

I'm interested to know how others have implemented this unit into their game. I'd also like to hear opinions from people who haven't.

I added two of them to the anti-tank section, 5cm (even though I can't find that they actually mounted a 5cm on Sdkfz 251) and 7.5. The 5cm becomes available a few months into Barbarossa, the 7.5 shortly after its towed counterpart.

Considering that the first units of the SdKfz 251/22 have been delivered in Dec 1944 this would be a bit off...it was an awesome vehicle but no way bringing it in in 1942..btw there never has been a SdKfz which featured a 5cm Pak by design but those in existence,mainly 251/7 Pionier vehicles ,have been mounted due to the absence of the normally mounted 2,8cm tank rifle to replace the MG but it wasnt produced this way

Until the arrival of the Hetzer(38t) in Summer 1944 the Marder II and the Marder III were the only mobile PAKs on the eastern front.
You can of course add any untis you wish if you feel ty enhance you gameplay although in this case historically wise it would be off topic ...

[4kEY]

Thanks, Chris.

[alex0809]

But weren't their other variants that were rather common? For example the one with the infantry gun 75mm mounted? That wouldn't be bad either, a lot of soft attack and few hard attack which would also make it more balanced for such infantry - if encountering infantry: stay in halftrack - tanks: dismount

[Chris10]

But weren't their other variants that were rather common? For example the one with the infantry gun 75mm mounted? That wouldn't be bad either, a lot of soft attack and few hard attack which would also make it more balanced for such infantry -

This was SdKfz 251/9 (some google picture search gives 251/8 as result which is wrong) and was mounted since August 1944 and not before...belive me there were no heavily armed Sdkfz 251 until later in the war and their production numbers were pretty low...on the other hand these heavy armed 251 lost mostly their personel carrying ability so I fail to see how they can go as transports for infantry while having that much firepower..transports are transports and are supposed to be vulnerable against infantry,air and armor attacks just as it was in reality when columns of even armored transports have fallen easy prey to unmounted infantry, tanks or air attacks...they are not fighting vehicles and those mentiones here in this topic (251/22 and 251/9) were designed to be "support" vehicles standing way behind their own infantry on a secure position to provide fire support and not to engage in actual combat were their life expectance was 2 minutes...the whole symbiosis and reasoning behind this concept discussed here is far beyond historical facts...

if encountering infantry: stay in halftrack - tanks: dismount

and btw...infantry in half tracks was an easy target for enemy infantry as they only had to throw grenades into the open personel room or use small calibre mortars, tank rifles or depressed-trajectory small arms fire from elevated positions to deal with the soldiers inside the vehicle...halftracks were used to transport pz-grenadiers on and to the battlefield and not for encountering enemy infatry ...they were death traps in close combat

[4kEY]

Mobile Death Trap 251/22.

Looks like the 88 was what they used to make the unit. 88mm Mobile Death Pak.

[Chris10]

Mobile Death Trap 251/22.

Looks like the 88 was what they used to make the unit. 88mm Mobile Death Pak.

ohh..a new DLC...Panzercorps Fantasy

not that the chassis of the 251 would have supported the 8,8 weight of 5 tons but hey...antigravitiy devices from the secret weapons of the Luftwaffe may have been installed here
the icon looks great though..very much Pc style

hera a real combat pic of a SdKfz 251/22...most people overestimate the size of the vehicle..it was only 5,8m while the barrel of the 7,5 Pak/40 was about 3,50m and the guns weight was about 1,4 tons...the 8,8 barrel was close to 5m

[Ballermann]

I have this Version from the SdKfz 251/22

GER_SdKfz251_22.png (24.34 KiB) Viewed 6080 times

[4kEY]

That looks better, thanks Ballermann.

[alex0809]

and btw...infantry in half tracks was an easy target for enemy infantry as they only had to throw grenades into the open personel room or use small calibre mortars, tank rifles or depressed-trajectory small arms fire from elevated positions to deal with the soldiers inside the vehicle...halftracks were used to transport pz-grenadiers on and to the battlefield and not for encountering enemy infatry ...they were death traps in close combat

I know that the SdKfz 251 weren't really suitable as some kind of armored vehicles, I was just talking about the game. Because right now the infantry mounted in SdKfz 251 with MG are worse vs everything than without mount - which as you say is propably how it should be. But if there was the Sdkfz 251/9 (expensive of course) as a mount, it could be used as a kind of anti-infantry mount for example for pioneers, so they could deal with the tanks dismounted and with infantry mounted It's not like the game is very accurate with such things anyway.

[Kerensky]

74 SdKfz 251/22 3 370 5 52 6 1 0 10 4 18 0 1 8 10 0 0 0 SdKfz 251/22.png 15.11.1942 1.1.1946 1 fixedt

Quick and dirty stats I threw together for such a unit.
Cheaper than tanks at 370, nice hard attack at 18, good durability with 8 ground defense(and more importantly made it a SOFT target not a HARD target), but with somehow low fuel and ammo capacity (52/5) and extreme vulnerability to enemy infantry(4 soft attack/0 close defense)

[Ballermann]

That looks better, thanks Ballermann.

Thanks goes to Puma, he has made this unit, but he never upload this unit (i have ask him and it´s okay).

[4kEY]

Thanks, Kerensky.

Looks like we have about everything we need, except offsets. The paktrak png has offset values in Vpaulus's RSM, but has a shorter barrel:

paktrack.png (64,-21) (-64,-21) (,) (,) StuGIII_75mm_1 SS_SdKfz_251_1

With the longer barrel, the 251/22 png from Puma will likely look better.

[VPaulus]

Thanks, Kerensky.

Looks like we have about everything we need, except offsets. The paktrak png has offset values in Vpaulus's RSM, but has a shorter barrel:

paktrack.png (64,-21) (-64,-21) (,) (,) StuGIII_75mm_1 SS_SdKfz_251_1

With the longer barrel, the 251/22 png from Puma will likely look better.

You just have to adjust the x coordinate. If it's longer than maybe (84,-21) (-84,-21)
Do you need any explanation how the offsets values work?

[4kEY]

Thanks, Kerensky.

Looks like we have about everything we need, except offsets. The paktrak png has offset values in Vpaulus's RSM, but has a shorter barrel:

paktrack.png (64,-21) (-64,-21) (,) (,) StuGIII_75mm_1 SS_SdKfz_251_1

With the longer barrel, the 251/22 png from Puma will likely look better.

You just have to adjust the x coordinate. If it's longer than maybe (84,-21) (-84,-21)
Do you need any explanation how the offsets values work?

Does it follow algebra? I didn't consider that.

No explanation on how they work is required now, thanks VPaulus. However, a program to open the unit inside a graph to position the animations would be great - like what the developers use.

[VPaulus]

Follows algebra but it has a little twist. The y coordinate is reversed.
Look at this graph:


I've made grids to help me in the editing and adding animations. The grid which I'm showing you is a grid that helps me more for positioning the icon than for obtaining coordinates, although you can use for having an idea of the coordinates.


Those coordinates that I've in the efx file for the paktrack are wrong. As you can see in the graph they should be more (24,-21) and (-24,-21). This happens because I trust always in the modders, and I'm not checking each animation coordinate.
I believe that the great majority are correct, that is more an exception than otherwise.

If you want the grids I can provide them. You'll have to use a program tlike Gimp or Photoshop to use them as a layer for overlaying them over the icon, juts like I've done in the example above.

@Bob
I told you that's easy to understand how it works.

[4kEY]

Yeah, VPaulus, that would be cool if you could provide those. I'd appreciate it.

[Ballermann]

74 SdKfz 251/22 3 370 5 52 6 1 0 10 4 18 0 1 8 10 0 0 0 SdKfz 251/22.png 15.11.1942 1.1.1946 1 fixedt

I use this:
3204 SdKfz 251/22 3 290 10 65 5 1 0 12 10 18 0 1 10 12 1 1 0 GER_SdKfz251_22.png 01.08.1944 01.01.1946 1 Sd.Kfz. 251/22 Ausf. D - w/7.5 cm Pak 40

For Fire (works fine with Puma´s Paktrack):
(35,-17) (-35,-17) (,) (,)

[VPaulus]

Here it is:


Note that I use this mainly to place units not for obtaining offset coordinates.

[4kEY]

Right on. Maybe I'll make a skin out of it.