900ADish Byzantines Thematic vs Nikephorian

[ethan]

Having obtained some LBM Byzantine banners I am inspired to fix up my Byzantines.

I think there is a useful army in the Nikephorian and Thematic lists but wonder what other people think. As I toyed around wtih Nike's the problem that struck me was a lack of "filler" troops to bring the numbers up, unless you commit to bringing the Skoutatoi or an ally. The Thematics (which post 904AD are presumably pretty much the same basic troops) don't have this problem, they can bring foot without having to bring Skoutatoi and potentially their Skoutatoi are better in any case.

The Nike advantage is in having all superior mounted, but then the Thematic average cavalry is 10AP a file cheaper which is substantial. What is somewhat surprising is the Thematics can get about 2/3 as much superior mounted as the Nikes and a couple of extra BGs of mounted overall with the average cavalry.

For Nikephorians I get something like (4 BGs of superior cavalry, 2 average)

1 Slingers LF Unprotected Poor Drilled Sling - - - 4
2 Javelinmen LF Unprotected Poor Drilled Javelins Light Spear - - 6
3 Archers LF Unprotected Average Drilled Bow - - - 6
4 Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bw* Lancers Swordsmen - 4
5 Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bw* Lancers Swordsmen - 4
6 Flankers Cv Protected Average Drilled Bow - Swordsmen - 4
7 Spearmen and Archers HF Protected Average Drilled - defensive spearmen Spearmen - 4
7 Spearmen and Archers MF Protected Average Drilled Bow - - - 4
8 Spearmen and Archers HF Protected Average Drilled - defensive spearmen Spearmen - 4
8 Spearmen and Archers MF Protected Average Drilled Bow - - - 4
9 Menavlatoi HF Protected Average Drilled - Heavy weapon Heavy weapon - 6
10 Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bw* Lancers Swordsmen - 6
11 Flankers Cv Protected Average Drilled Bow - Swordsmen - 4
12 Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bw* Lancers Swordsmen - 4

or (IC, 2xTC, 1 Allied TC) for an all mounted version (6BGs of superior cavalry, counting the Kataphractoi as one BG, 2 average)

1 Bedouin allied cavalry LH Unprotected Average Undrilled - Lancers Swordsmen - 4
2 Bedouin allied cavalry LH Unprotected Average Undrilled - Lancers Swordsmen - 4
3 Bedouin armoured cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Undrilled - Lancers Swordsmen - 4
4 Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bw* Lancers Swordsmen - 4
5 Flankers Cv Protected Average Drilled Bow - Swordsmen - 4
6 Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bw* Lancers Swordsmen - 4
7 Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bw* Lancers Swordsmen - 4
8 Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bw* Lancers Swordsmen - 4
9 Flankers Cv Protected Average Drilled Bow - Swordsmen - 4
10 Katapharctoi Ct Heavily armoured Elite Drilled - Lancers Swordsmen - 1
10 Katapharctoi Ct Heavily armoured Elite Drilled Bow - Swordsmen - 1
11 Katapharctoi Ct Heavily armoured Elite Drilled - Lancers Swordsmen - 1
11 Katapharctoi Ct Heavily armoured Elite Drilled Bow - Swordsmen - 1

For Thematics you can get (IC, 2xTC again) with 4 BGs of superior cavalry and 3 Average

1 Skoutatoi HF Protected Average Drilled - defensive spearmen Spearmen - 6
1 Skoutatoi LF Unprotected Average Drilled Bow - - - 2
2 Skoutatoi HF Protected Average Drilled - defensive spearmen Spearmen - 6
2 Skoutatoi LF Unprotected Average Drilled Bow - - - 2
3 Menavlatoi HF Protected Average Drilled - Heavy weapon Heavy weapon - 4
4 Tagmatic Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bw* Lancers Swordmen - 4
5 Tagmatic Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bw* Lancers Swordmen - 4
6 Bulgar or Alan mercenaries LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - Swordmen - 4
7 Detached Koursores Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bow - Swordmen - 4
8 First class Thematic cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 2
8 First class Thematic cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled Bow - Swordmen - 2
9 First class Thematic cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 2
9 First class Thematic cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled Bow - Swordmen - 2
10 Tagmatic Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bw* Lancers Swordmen - 4
11 First class Thematic cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 2
11 First class Thematic cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled Bow - Swordmen - 2

or this (IC, 2xTC) for an "all mounted" version (4 superior cavalry and 4 average)

1 Bulgar or Alan mercenaries LH Unprotected Average Undrilled Bow - Swordmen - 4
2 Javelinmen LF Unprotected Poor Drilled Javelins Light spear - - 4
3 Slingers LF Unprotected Average Drilled Sling - - - 4
4 Tagmatic Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bw* Lancers Swordmen - 4
5 Tagmatic Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bw* Lancers Swordmen - 4
6 First class Thematic cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 2
6 First class Thematic cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled Bow - Swordmen - 2
7 Detached Koursores Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bow - Swordmen - 4
8 First class Thematic cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 2
8 First class Thematic cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled Bow - Swordmen - 2
9 First class Thematic cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 2
9 First class Thematic cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled Bow - Swordmen - 2
10 Tagmatic Cavalry Cv Armoured Superior Drilled Bw* Lancers Swordmen - 4
11 First class Thematic cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 2
11 First class Thematic cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled Bow - Swordmen - 2
12 First class Thematic cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled - Lancers Swordmen - 2
12 First class Thematic cavalry Cv Armoured Average Drilled Bow - Swordmen - 2

[BlackPrince]

My brother runs the Nikes it is a nice army but IMHO is suffers because it is designed to fight against mounted opponents. When I use the all foot option with my Free Company army it really struggles to win any combats especially if I keep formation. When I field a mounted knight option the Nike army performs a lot better.

Keith

[ethan]

My brother runs the Nikes it is a nice army but IMHO is suffers because it is designed to fight against mounted opponents. When I use the all foot option with my Free Company army it really struggles to win any combats especially if I keep formation. When I field a mounted knight option the Nike army performs a lot better.

Keith

Medieval foot is always going to be pretty tough here, longbows are particularly hard to deal with IMO.

[philqw78]

If you are going to use Nikes use the varangians. They are probably the most effective troops in the game.

[ethan]

If you are going to use Nikes use the varangians. They are probably the most effective troops in the game.

If you want Varangians you have to run the later period of Nikes, which has less effective cavalry (although it does get the Normans).

[philqw78]

If you want Varangians you have to run the later period of Nikes, which has less effective cavalry (although it does get the Normans).

You lose some You win some

[batesmotel]

My brother runs the Nikes it is a nice army but IMHO is suffers because it is designed to fight against mounted opponents. When I use the all foot option with my Free Company army it really struggles to win any combats especially if I keep formation. When I field a mounted knight option the Nike army performs a lot better.

Keith

While the Nikephorian army is optimized for fighting mounted, I think the right way to deal with primarily foot armies with them is to use the Kataphraktoi and the superior cavalry to take on the foot, preferably only a part of it that you can gang up on while skirmishers and flankers occupy the rest. In general I prefer the Nikephorians to the Thematics due to the ability to get twice as many of the kataphraktoi plus I find the Nikephorian foot spearmen and archer BG's in 8's with 50/50 HF Def spear and MF Bow to be far more effective against mounted than the Thematic foot with 3/4 HF Def Spear plus 1/4 LF Bow. Against foot I think the Nikephorian foot is probably a bit more effective/flexible although more expensive than the Thematic foot per file if deployed 4 deep.

Chris

[footslogger]

So, did you ever have many outings with any of these lists? How did they manage?