Squares, can they move?

[Trailape]

Hi guys.
Ok, so squares are a tactical formation, but can they move and if so at what MU?

[magister]

Hi trail...

Square isn't tactical formation!
Infact they can't move, see pag.36 3d dot, for minimum move!
Also per outcome move pg.61 you will see that....!!

Francesco

[BrettPT]

Actually, I think that squares can move 1MU

Buried on page 36 (3rd bullet point)
"...all units can move a minimum of 1MU in all terrain and conditions (even infantry in square)"

I assume this 1MU is a simple move if it constitutes "Any forwards movement including a wheel with no change of formation".
Squares may also be able to stay stationary and slide a base width sideways if outside of 2MU of enemy and they pass a CMT (see page 38).

Cheers
Brett

[donm]

Brett,

Yes, I agree with your answer.

Have to say though I was very supprised when I read it and could not understand why it was not noted on the movement chart.

Don

[deadtorius]

wish I could have remembered that one on Saturday, I wanted my square to crawl up with the rest of the troops but we couldn't find it so just left it where it was.
French cavalry forced it to move in the end

[Trailape]

Hi trail...

Square isn't tactical formation!
Infact they can't move, see pag.36 3d dot, for minimum move!
Also per outcome move pg.61 you will see that....!!

Francesco

It's not Tactical formation. Really?
I draw your attention to page 85, 2nd last para:

"...This is shown by placing the unit in Tactical formation & turning the rear rank to face the rear".
The main reason I asked because one of the outcome moves for a square is to HALT. I assume a square must have the abillity to move if there is the requirement to halt.
I just couldn't find any reference to movement distance.
I will go with the 3rd dot on page 36 as confirmation that squares move 1MU.
Thanks guys!

[Trailape]

A seperate and better QRS would be good. The ones in the rear of the book I find a tad confusing.
Or is it just me?

[Blathergut]

Hi trail...

Square isn't tactical formation!
Infact they can't move, see pag.36 3d dot, for minimum move!
Also per outcome move pg.61 you will see that....!!

Francesco

It's not Tactical formation. Really?
I draw your attention to page 85, 2nd last para:

"...This is shown by placing the unit in Tactical formation & turning the rear rank to face the rear".
The main reason I asked because one of the outcome moves for a square is to HALT. I assume a square must have the abillity to move if there is the requirement to halt.
I just couldn't find any reference to movement distance.
I will go with the 3rd dot on page 36 as confirmation that squares move 1MU.
Thanks guys!

I would think the "place unit in tactical...then turn rear rank" means you start in that tactical to show the positioning, but once you turn the rear rank and actually form square you are no longer in 'tactical formation'.

[deadtorius]

My guess on placing unit in a tactical formation could mean going from extended line back to the tactical formation, then turning the rear bases. Would prevent you from trying to form a defensive rectangle from extended line

It does seem to say that they can move 1 MU (thought I had seen that somewhere pre-game but couldn't find it) and also seems they can slide if need be. I also recall something about being able to wheel a square to face, although I am not sure how you could not be facing forwards from a square.... That one struck me as odd in the rules.

[Trailape]

Hi trail...

Square isn't tactical formation!
Infact they can't move, see pag.36 3d dot, for minimum move!
Also per outcome move pg.61 you will see that....!!

Francesco

It's not Tactical formation. Really?
I draw your attention to page 85, 2nd last para:

"...This is shown by placing the unit in Tactical formation & turning the rear rank to face the rear".
The main reason I asked because one of the outcome moves for a square is to HALT. I assume a square must have the abillity to move if there is the requirement to halt.
I just couldn't find any reference to movement distance.
I will go with the 3rd dot on page 36 as confirmation that squares move 1MU.
Thanks guys!

I would think the "place unit in tactical...then turn rear rank" means you start in that tactical to show the positioning, but once you turn the rear rank and actually form square you are no longer in 'tactical formation'.

I'm not so sure.
the paragraph reads in total:
"The final formation that an Infantry unit may use is that of Square. Normally it is only used by Infantry if they are about to be attacked by Cavalry. This is shown by placing the unit in Tactical formation & turning the rear rank to face the rear".
Note 'Tactical formation' with a capital 'T'. This tells me that square is classed as a form of Tactical formation, (not simply a formation that has a tactial use on the battlefield / in the game)

[Trailape]

And surely a Square has no Front, Flanks or Rear? It should be able to move in any direction also.

P.S. Oh Joy, I've gone from being a Truck to 3 Nazi Privates!!!

[deadtorius]

page 85 third paragraph Infantry Formations "A brigade was rarely deployed with all regiments in line abreast. The most common deployment in line with multiple battalions behind each other, or in columns with battalions abreast. We refer to both of these formations as 'Tactical' formations and do not differentiate between them on the table top....."

So that appears to be the definition of "tactical formation" so it looks like you have to be 2 or 3 wide (large or small unit) to form square. so extended line drops back to tactical then forms square. Extended line does not mention Tactical Formation in its description, nor does being in march column or lights in skirmish formation, who take 2 turns to form square as they have to move back to tactical in one turn then form square in the next.

So looks like a square is not a tactical formation but it can still crawl along if it wants. 1 MU regardless of terrain.

[Trailape]

Well if that's the case then the paragraph I've been quoting is a very poorly written paragraph at least, and down right confusing at worst, as it states:
"This is shown by placing the unit in Tactical formation & turning the rear rank to face the rear".
I read that to mean you create a square by placing a unit in Tactical formation, (then simply turn the rear rank about).

[deadtorius]

I still think it refers to moving from extended line or march column to a tactical formation, then turning your rear base around. So no long strung out marching lines or extended lines that turn the first and last stand backwards to form the defensive rectangle. I think they could have worded the whole "this is the definition of a tactical formation" part of it all a bit better. You just had to read closer to the top of the page to get the definition of "tactical formation"

So looks like squares, march columns and extended lines do not count as tactical formations for infantry.

[Chasseur]

I still think it refers to moving from extended line or march column to a tactical formation, then turning your rear base around. So no long strung out marching lines or extended lines that turn the first and last stand backwards to form the defensive rectangle. I think they could have worded the whole "this is the definition of a tactical formation" part of it all a bit better. You just had to read closer to the top of the page to get the definition of "tactical formation"
So looks like squares, march columns and extended lines do not count as tactical formations for infantry.

Correct. Square is not Tactical formation within the game. Thus it gets only 4 dice for a Small unit in Combat. As you state, the sentence allows for
1. Moving bases from Extended Line or March Column to Tactical formation if you are in these formations.
AND
2. Then moving out of Tactical formation and into Square by turning the rear bases around.

The reason point 1 exists is so that all the rules about how and where you form the Tactical formation from the other formations apply first, before you form the square. If not done like this, then it would be repeating whole paragraphs instead of being a single sentence.
Perhaps it may have been clearer if written:
"This is shown by first placing the unit in Tactical formation & then form Square formation by turning the rear rank to face the rear."

Cheers,
John Shaw

[Trailape]

Yep
It would be clearer if written as you suggest.
Cheers

[terrys]

The reason point 1 exists is so that all the rules about how and where you form the Tactical formation from the other formations apply first, before you form the square. If not done like this, then it would be repeating whole paragraphs instead of being a single sentence.
Perhaps it may have been clearer if written:
"This is shown by first placing the unit in Tactical formation & then form Square formation by turning the rear rank to face the rear."

The reason we used this wording was because there is already a description of the positioning of bases when in tactical formation.
To form square you need to have your bases placed in that formation before turning the rear rank.

[deadtorius]

If you have a large unit in a 3 deep tactical formation and they form square, do they still get self support?
Couldn't find anything to say that squares don't get support but was just wondering if the large formations still get that special bonus.

[Astronomican]

If you have a large unit in a 3 deep tactical formation and they form square, do they still get self support?
Couldn't find anything to say that squares don't get support but was just wondering if the large formations still get that special bonus.

Squares are not a Tactical formation - see answer above.

Only large units in 3-deep Tactical formation self-support.


Jimi

[deadtorius]

good point, I missed the whole must be in tactical formation thing.
So if I can just force the large Froggies into square they will lose their self support.

One other thing I was wondering about squares, skirmishers have to spend a turn reforming into a tactical formation before they can form square. If the enemy is more than 6 MU away could they try a CMT and use a second move to go from tactical to square? I think I read somewhere it takes 2 turns for them to make a square but was wondering if they can short cut it if they get enough warning.