Quality vs Quantity???

[Blathergut]

Plotting Deadtoriusss'ss doom for tomorrow. I put together a French 1813 Corps with 2 divisions, one with veterans (those uniforms must be dang expensive!!!). I come in at 5 inf units (one large), a couple arty and a cav.

Spies report an Austrian 1813 army approaching with something like 8 inf units, 2 arty, and 2 cav.

In games you've played, did quality have a chance against swarmy smarmy hordes??

[BrettPT]

Quality v numbers is pretty balanced. Are you playing 800 points? Your army seems pretty small ... Most armies seem to come in at 12-14 units (at 800 points).

The trick when outnumbered is to obviously engage 1:1 somewhere along the line, and your better quality should see you with an advantage. The horde is meanwhile trying to swing around your flanks and bring their numbers to bear.

I would try advancing your veteran division as quickly as possible to 6MU of the Austrians and engage them in a medium range fight. The Austrians (who generally don't do medium range) will be forced to close to 2MU, giving you first shot. Assuming that your volley goes ok, you then launch an assault in your following turn to rout the whitecoats.

Look to win the battle in 4-5 turns with a 30:10. Don't let your units get isolated and ganged up on by 2 enemy units. This is usually fatal.

My Austrians have been soundly thrashed by tooled up (ie attachment rich) British veterans using these tactics.

Conversely however, my French Imperial Guard (coming in at a tiddly 8 units) have been annihiliated, sadly repeatedly, by larger 'average' armies who have managed to avoid or delay the 'point of decision' until their numbers have been bought to bear...

Cheers
Brett

[Blathergut]

We're just doing 600pts to try out the rules for the first time.

1813 Austrians move as unreformed but shoot as reforms

I'll let you know how we fare! Thanks for the suggestions!!

[BrettPT]

Look forward to hearing how you went.

Also you will be pleased to know that the bit in the rule book which says that Austrians can shoot as reformed is an error. 1813 Austrians are just plain old unreformed infantry who cannot shot at medium range (unless they have a skirmisher or artillery attachment).

I've copied the relevant posts:

I know the rule book says that Austrians are reformed, but I think this is a typo, and it is supposed to read 'move as reformed, shoot as unreformed'. Is this correct?
Cheers
Brett

Yes that is a mistake. We had experimented with the idea of making Austrians the reverse of the Brits as you say 'move as reformed, shoot as unreformed' but decided that did not work and reverted to treating them as unreformed. Somehow this error (which was the wrong wording ayway!) went unspotted in the proof read of the sample lists we put into the rulebook. It is corrected in the main list books. Where there is a difference between a list in the rulebook and an equivalent list in a list book, the latter should be treated as the definitive version.
-Terry

[Blathergut]

I had seen that, but didn't see it in the errata section (or missed it in there).

[Blathergut]

So, just to clarify:

The 1813 Austrians are unreformed for shooting and movement?

[hazelbark]

There is some nice resilience of the large units. They take some punishment and come in handy for conscrtipts or poor troops i think.

[hazelbark]

I would try advancing your veteran division as quickly as possible to 6MU of the Austrians and engage them in a medium range fight. The Austrians (who generally don't do medium range) will be forced to close to 2MU, giving you first shot. Assuming that your volley goes ok, you then launch an assault in your following turn to rout the whitecoats.

Generally do you find that a good order vs disorded is enough to assault? Or are you also assume some qualitative advantages.

[BrettPT]

So, just to clarify:

The 1813 Austrians are unreformed for shooting and movement?

I believe that is what Terry is saying.

[BrettPT]

Generally do you find that a good order vs disorded is enough to assault? Or are you also assume some qualitative advantages.

I think so. assuming small units, a disordered unit will shoot 3 dice in defensive fire, needing 4+ to hit, so average 1.5 hits.

You can expect to need to CMT to charge home. Even if you fail this CMT however, you still get to shoot first in the subsequent shooting phase.

If the defending unit manages 2 hits in defensive fire, you will be disorderd as well and then you have to make a decision whether to attempt to charge home or not. If you decide not to, again you get to shoot next and have a chance of doing 2 hits yourself, wavering your opponent.

Fresh units that close into contact with disordered ones have a big advantage in combat. Not only is it 6 dice against 4, but the defenders will need to hit with all 4 dice in combat - and you hit with no more 1, otherwise the defender will lose and get driven back. If you can scrape up some rear support (+1 dice to you, -1 to him), a rout for the defender is well on the cards.

The most likely outcome is for the defender to do 2 hits to you, dropping you to disordered, and you do 3 hits, dropping the defender to wavering and making him retire.

Regardless of outcome, the attacker gets to try and recover your coheison loss at the end of that turn, while the defender has to wait until his own recovery phase next turn to do likewise.

If, however, the disordered target has an attached artillery (+2 dice for defensive shooting), it would be a more near run thing.

Cheers
Brett

[donm]

As I only have Prussians, I have no idea what Quality is.

It doesn't matter what your grade is if you are hit by shooting.

If you have the numbers make sure they count, do not spread out all accross the battlefield and allow yourself to be picked on.

Don

[hazelbark]

As I only have Prussians, I have no idea what Quality is.

It doesn't matter what your grade is if you are hit by shooting.

have you found the large units helpful for poorer quality?

[donm]

have you found the large units helpful for poorer quality?

The simple answer is no. I don't use any large units I prefer the manouvre that 16 units give you in a 800 point army.

Having a skilled corps commander and +3 initiative gives you a good chance of an extra unit or at least attacking.

Poorer units give excellent rear support to your average units and add dice to your assaulting units.

Landwehr light cavalry in skirmisher order are great for delaying a flank.

Don

[donm]

Just to add to my previous post, here is my current 800 points list

Corps Commander Skilled Charismatic
1st Division
Commander Skilled charismatic
2 x small average drilled line with rifle skirmisher attachment
1 x small average conscript line
1 x small light cavalry average drilled line
1 x small heavy cavalry average drilled line
1 x small horse artillery average drilled line with howitzer attachment

2nd Division
Commander Regular
1 x small average drilled line with artillery attachment
1 x small average drilled line with rifle skirmisher attachment
1 x small average conscript line
1 x small light cavalry average conscript line
1 x small medium artillery average drilled line

3rd Division
Commander Regular
1 x small average conscript line with artillery attachment
1 x small average conscript line with rifle skirmisher attachment
1 x small average conscript line
1 x small light cavalry average conscript line
1 x small medium artillery average drilled line

My free unit is 1 x small heavy cavalry average drilled line

Hope this helps

Don

[Blathergut]

Well, we made it through the first game.

-quality was impressive...a large veteran line + small veteran light + veteran med. arty just kept motoring into the Austrians...and slowed more to my bumbling than anything else
-I kept stopping when disordered to try and recover...I should have kept going into them instead of always trying to disorder Austrian conscripts


Question: If I am the inactive player, and during firing I get a 'halt' or 'needs CMT to advance,' does this state come off at the end of the active player's movement phase or does it remain until the end of my next movement phase?

-cavalry...seemed to hit and become spent all in one turn...seemed to need to be kept for a strong punch at just the right moment instead of having at it with opposing cavalry at any time...

-you seemed to just need to hit your opponent for one hit to slow him down...the Austrians in particular had problems passing CMTs...what with irregulars and conscripts...

-artillery attachments and rear support sure were deadly in combat

[deadtorius]

here is the Austrian list from our first outing

Corps Commander Exeptional

First division skilled commander
German line infantry average drilled x4
German line infantry average drilled x4
Hungarian line infantry average drilledx6
6 pounder med artillery average drilled x2

2nd division competent commander
German line infantry average drilled x4
Grenzer light infantry average irregular x4
Cuirassier heavy cavalry average drilled shock troops x4
hussars light cavalry superior drilled x4
6 pounder med artillery average drilled x2
brigade commander (attached to the cuirassier)

3rd division competent commander
Landwehr line infantry poor conscripts x4
German line infantry average conscript x4
German line infantry average conscript x4
attached heavy artillery

[BrettPT]

If I am the inactive player, and during firing I get a 'halt' or 'needs CMT to advance,' does this state come off at the end of the active player's movement phase or does it remain until the end of my next movement phase?

A "may not advance" result has no effect if it occurs in the other player's turn (see page 55), and does not carry over to your own turn.

-cavalry...seemed to hit and become spent all in one turn...seemed to need to be kept for a strong punch at just the right moment instead of having at it with opposing cavalry at any time...

Yes mounted are a one (good) shot weapon. And you are correct. Near the end of the game - when the opposition army's solid lines have been broken up and disorder is widespread - is the time for fresh cavalry to shine.

-you seemed to just need to hit your opponent for one hit to slow him down...the Austrians in particular had problems passing CMTs...what with irregulars and conscripts...

Big units for poor quality troops can help (they then ignore a hit and so you have to get 2 on them to make them CMT). Having cavalry within 6MU, or a cavalry attachment, also helps to reduce the skirmish fire they have to face. Also leading key units with commanders so they pass their CMT on 4+ rather than 5+.

-artillery attachments and rear support sure were deadly in combat

Rear support definately helps - especially for conscripts who can then take cohesion tests as if they were drilled. Artillery attachments make it much harder for assaulting enemy to close (although of course they do not help in combat itself).

Cheers
Brett

[deadtorius]

After seeing how the game works, I would break up the conscripts and put them in different divisions to act as rear supports for the average line troops. Drop the Grenzers they were useless, and go for the jaeger with rifles instead. Make a second mixed division and add in skirmisher to each infantry unit.
Might want to try large gun batteries next time as well.

I did not find command to be any problems in this army, especially at the end as neither of us had much need for ADC points.
I think we have a fair handle on how the game works and some of the necessary die scores have settled into the old brain and I can remember them, irregular troops and conscripts are not easy to do much with as they only get 1 die for cohesion and trying to charge in is also quite hard. I think I might try to deploy some of my troops in an extended line next time, I ended up keeping them in their 2 deep formation this game, the extra shooting might come in handy.

Not as long and dragged out as the old WRG rules my figs were painted up for, we shall see if next time out we have better luck.

[deadtorius]

Can't seem to find it but can you move in a square or is my mind thinking FOG R?
Brain might be going dead on me...

[BrettPT]

Can't seem to find it but can you move in a square or is my mind thinking FOG R?
Brain might be going dead on me...

Buried on page 36 (3rd bullet point)
"...all units can move a minimum of 1MU in all terrain and conditions (even infantry in square)"

So yes, squares can shuffle 1MU, I assume as a simple move if it constitutes "Any forwards movement including a wheel with no change of formation".

Squares may also be able to stay stationary and slide a base width sideways if outside of 2MU of enemy and they pass a CMT (see page 38).