Rope-A-Dope Scandinavian Blitz Defense

[rkr1958]

For those as old as I am and who are familiar with boxing and Muhammad Ali, the Rope-A-Dope was a passive strategy he used successfully in many fights. Basically, Ali would go to a corner, cover up and let his opponent pound away on his arms. After a few rounds his opponent would tire and then Ali would go on the offensive and pound away at his worn out opponent. This strategy worked most often than not.

In hotseat testing I came up with a similar defense that can be used in Norway. Well, not really. The only thing it has in common with Ali's rope-a-dope is that it's passive. But I like the term rope-a-dope and thought I'd name this tactic it.

The situation was that the weather was fair across the map on turn 3 (October 11, 1939) and the axis successfully crushed Denmark and landed in Norway. Fair weather in Northern Europe means that the allies can NOT rail the Bergen and Trondheim 2-step garrisons to block the two German infantry corps. Thus, it appears that the Germans will easily conquer Norway next turn, even if the Oslo garrison is repaired to 5-steps. Well, not so fast. By moving the Oslo garrison out of Oslo and adjacent to one of the two German corps there is a 50% chance that Norway can be saved at no cost! If the next turn is non-fair weather in northern Europe (50%) then the German corps will only have a movement of 1 and the uncovered German corps can't reach the empty city. The only hope is for the adjacent German corps to knock 0 or 1 steps off and force a retreat into Oslo. Then the uncovered corps could move adjacent and advance into the city if it finishes off the Oslo defender. In the example below, the adjacent German corps inflicted 4-steps loss (double that needed to destroy the garrison) and the uncovered German corps could only move adjacent to the city. The allies in their turn will be able to rail one of the two remaining garrisons into the city. This "rope-a-dope" guaranteed at least one more turn for Norway, which means 4 extra PP's for the UK, for free!

[supermax]

Well, this is a nice defense.

But if you ask me, Norway is only worth it if you play against a defensive player.

An agressive player like me will immediatly send a plane to Bergen and then land troops there. There isnt any way out of it. Just dont attack Norway unless youve conquered England or face the consequences...

Your brilliant defense here only states the obvious. The germans are asking for trouble if they want Norway.

But a good way of blocking this is to land on the declaration of war turn in Bergen and take it. It then removes the possibily of any allies landing planes there.

Speaking of which... I noticed what i think is a bug ... In my game against Moriss, everytime one of my troop leave Bergen it immediatly reverts to german control... It makes things a little bit complicated for me as any time i want to land reinforcements in Bergen, i have to expand a amphibious point! Is this normal??? Since i have been so far landed 4 troops, i now circumvent the problem by landing troops south of Bergen in the hexe there...

[zechi]

Speaking of which... I noticed what i think is a bug ... In my game against Moriss, everytime one of my troop leave Bergen it immediatly reverts to german control... It makes things a little bit complicated for me as any time i want to land reinforcements in Bergen, i have to expand a amphibious point! Is this normal??? Since i have been so far landed 4 troops, i now circumvent the problem by landing troops south of Bergen in the hexe there...

This is not a bug, this is intended:

260. Changed functionality so air units holding resource or city hexes in a country that has conquered will lose control of the hex if rebasing out of the hex unless a friendly ground unit is adjacent or the supply in the hex is 4 or better. This should take care of situations in Norway / France where UK air units fly to port cities to keep control. Now they keep control only as long as the air unit remains there. The hex control is changed to the owner of the surrendered country’s capital owner (Germany in the above cases). If a ground unit is adjacent to the airunit then you keep control when the air unit rebases. This simulates the ground unit taking over control of the hex. This code was added to avoid situations where you fly in air units to e. g. France in 1944 before the Allies have got a complete foothold there. Also added code that if the hex has supply level 4 or better then this won’t happen. This is done to ensure that if the Allies land in France and Italy they won’t risk having the ownership changed to the capital owner just because they rebased an air unit stationed in a resource hex.

[rkr1958]

Speaking of which... I noticed what i think is a bug ... In my game against Moriss, everytime one of my troop leave Bergen it immediatly reverts to german control... It makes things a little bit complicated for me as any time i want to land reinforcements in Bergen, i have to expand a amphibious point! Is this normal??? Since i have been so far landed 4 troops, i now circumvent the problem by landing troops south of Bergen in the hexe there...

If your troops are air units then this is by designed as pointed out by zechi above.

Well, this is a nice defense.

But if you ask me, Norway is only worth it if you play against a defensive player.

An agressive player like me will immediatly send a plane to Bergen and then land troops there. There isnt any way out of it. Just dont attack Norway unless youve conquered England or face the consequences...

Yeah ... your counter moves do tend to create headaches from most players. My personal experience is that things that I do that work well (or fairly well) against most players don't do as well against players like you, Borger, Joe Rock and Neil. You guys (and I would include Morris and others) are just in a class above the rest of us mere GS mortals.

[supermax]

Well, guys, thats just the problem.

Ive had land units in the hex, also land units adjacent to the hex, but if i move the unit away, it reverts back to German control... If its like that for every city on the map, i can already tell you that its going to be that much harder to beat the germans. Do you guys realise that this can and will be exploited?

By the way, i understand the reasons for this rule, but doing so is completly illogical, in the sense that if when you remove your units from a city it reverts back to the conquerer's control's , why does it doesnt do the same when the country's owner (un-conquered) still control it? It should in all honesty do the same.

[supermax]

Speaking of which... I noticed what i think is a bug ... In my game against Moriss, everytime one of my troop leave Bergen it immediatly reverts to german control... It makes things a little bit complicated for me as any time i want to land reinforcements in Bergen, i have to expand a amphibious point! Is this normal??? Since i have been so far landed 4 troops, i now circumvent the problem by landing troops south of Bergen in the hexe there...

If your troops are air units then this is by designed as pointed out by zechi above.

Well, this is a nice defense.

But if you ask me, Norway is only worth it if you play against a defensive player.

An agressive player like me will immediatly send a plane to Bergen and then land troops there. There isnt any way out of it. Just dont attack Norway unless youve conquered England or face the consequences...

Yeah ... your counter moves do tend to create headaches from most players. My personal experience is that things that I do that work well (or fairly well) against most players don't do as well against players like you, Borger, Joe Rock and Neil. You guys (and I would include Morris and others) are just in a class above the rest of us mere GS mortals.

Well, yes and no. I mean it doesnt take a genius to understand that you can seriously hamper and disrupt Barbarossa preperations with a solid British landing in Bergen. It forces the german either to leave control of Norway to the allies or send a massive force to root out the brits. In each case as ive found out, its VERY good for the allies.

Just dont attack Norway it isnt worth it, unless you can make sure a 100% that you will take out Bergen in the first turn. I mean in some games i can even be in control of Tronheim on turn 2 of the Norway invasion...

In my most recent game with Moriss, i was able to secure Bergen and now the germans have 5 planes in the area (we are in november 1940) in addition to 4 land troops. moriss being the specialist in having a super barbarossa, dont you think that the oil, PP and time he is wasting is Norway will hurt him?

[zechi]

Well, guys, thats just the problem.

Ive had land units in the hex, also land units adjacent to the hex, but if i move the unit away, it reverts back to German control... If its like that for every city on the map, i can already tell you that its going to be that much harder to beat the germans. Do you guys realise that this can and will be exploited?

Where exactly do you see the exploit? In fact the new rule was created to stop a gamey exploit, i.e. sending air units to occupy cities just before the surrender of the country in question (mostly France and Norway).

By the way, i understand the reasons for this rule, but doing so is completly illogical, in the sense that if when you remove your units from a city it reverts back to the conquerer's control's , why does it doesnt do the same when the country's owner (un-conquered) still control it? It should in all honesty do the same.

As the game is very abstract you could argue that when a country surrenders, the invader did sent smaller then Corps/Division sized units to occupy all of the country quickly. In fact this is what the German did in the Norway campaign. Bergen was captured by less then 2000 German soldiers in the real war. Furthermore, if a country surrenders, it will usually surrender the whole country, i.e. all cities would follow the newly installed authority with the exception of the cities still occupied by enemy soldiers. For example, as France surrendered in WW2 the cities which were not yet German controlled also surrendered to the Germans, even if no German Soldier did set a foot in the cities in question (with the exception of those where the British were in command).

[supermax]

Well, guys, thats just the problem.

Ive had land units in the hex, also land units adjacent to the hex, but if i move the unit away, it reverts back to German control... If its like that for every city on the map, i can already tell you that its going to be that much harder to beat the germans. Do you guys realise that this can and will be exploited?

Where exactly do you see the exploit? In fact the new rule was created to stop a gamey exploit, i.e. sending air units to occupy cities just before the surrender of the country in question (mostly France and Norway).

By the way, i understand the reasons for this rule, but doing so is completly illogical, in the sense that if when you remove your units from a city it reverts back to the conquerer's control's , why does it doesnt do the same when the country's owner (un-conquered) still control it? It should in all honesty do the same.

As the game is very abstract you could argue that when a country surrenders, the invader did sent smaller then Corps/Division sized units to occupy all of the country quickly. In fact this is what the German did in the Norway campaign. Bergen was captured by less then 2000 German soldiers in the real war. Furthermore, if a country surrenders, it will usually surrender the whole country, i.e. all cities would follow the newly installed authority with the exception of the cities still occupied by enemy soldiers. For example, as France surrendered in WW2 the cities which were not yet German controlled also surrendered to the Germans, even if no German Soldier did set a foot in the cities in question (with the exception of those where the British were in command).

Yes... But you could also argue that when Norway is still under Norwegian control (unconquered) than whenever the germans vacate a city then it should revert back to norwegian control since there would me more troop(under your logic stated here) since they would be local and could retake control of their city???? Wouldnt that make sense as well? I mean if german occupation troop can pop up of nowhere in Bergen, couldnt the Norwegians themselves also pop up from nowhere in their own city?

[zechi]

Yes... But you could also argue that when Norway is still under Norwegian control (unconquered) than whenever the germans vacate a city then it should revert back to norwegian control since there would me more troop(under your logic stated here) since they would be local and could retake control of their city???? Wouldnt that make sense as well? I mean if german occupation troop can pop up of nowhere in Bergen, couldnt the Norwegians themselves also pop up from nowhere in their own city?

I don't think so, as soon as Norway surrenders formally to Germany, the Norwegian Army and Administration would cease to resist and would therefore not try to "liberate" unoccupied cities.

[supermax]

Yes... But you could also argue that when Norway is still under Norwegian control (unconquered) than whenever the germans vacate a city then it should revert back to norwegian control since there would me more troop(under your logic stated here) since they would be local and could retake control of their city???? Wouldnt that make sense as well? I mean if german occupation troop can pop up of nowhere in Bergen, couldnt the Norwegians themselves also pop up from nowhere in their own city?

I don't think so, as soon as Norway surrenders formally to Germany, the Norwegian Army and Administration would cease to resist and would therefore not try to "liberate" unoccupied cities.

Ok, this must be because i am french canadian and cant explain myself properly, you dont understand what i mean.

I'll try again.

If you say that cities would revert back to German control because the country is conquered, then what of say for example :

Un-conquered Norway. Germany lands in Bergen and takes control of the city, but doesnt conquer Oslo, so the country doesnt surrender. Next turn, the germans dont conquer Oslo still, and move the troop away from Bergen. Wouldnt the city supposed to go back to Norwegian control under your logic? that would be logical since it does the same thing when the country is conquered? The Norwegian could surely retake control of their city more easily than the germans no?

[zechi]

Un-conquered Norway. Germany lands in Bergen and takes control of the city, but doesnt conquer Oslo, so the country doesnt surrender. Next turn, the germans dont conquer Oslo still, and move the troop away from Bergen. Wouldnt the city supposed to go back to Norwegian control under your logic? that would be logical since it does the same thing when the country is conquered? The Norwegian could surely retake control of their city more easily than the germans no?

Yes, but I think this how the rule would work if the Germans would try such an invasion. Remember that this can only happen if the supply level is 3 or lower.

Cheers Zechi

[Kragdob]

Un-conquered Norway. Germany lands in Bergen and takes control of the city, but doesnt conquer Oslo, so the country doesnt surrender. Next turn, the germans dont conquer Oslo still, and move the troop away from Bergen. Wouldnt the city supposed to go back to Norwegian control under your logic? that would be logical since it does the same thing when the country is conquered? The Norwegian could surely retake control of their city more easily than the germans no?

I tried to discuss with this but 'exploit' was too gamey for some people and as I predicted it creates more severe inconsequences than just assuming that landing a plane in Bergen is just also 'small amphibious operation' that must be opposed by you opponent...

Btw.

which means 7 extra PP's for the UK, for free!

It is not 7 but 55% * 7 ~= 4 PP.

The strategy would have even higher chances if you just move the garrison north and rely on the weather not allowing Axis to reach Oslo.

[rkr1958]

which means 7 extra PP's for the UK, for free!

It is not 7 but 55% * 7 ~= 4 PP.

The strategy would have even higher chances if you just move the garrison north and rely on the weather not allowing Axis to reach Oslo.

Duh ... that's even simpler!

[Cybvep]

It's quite stupid that moving the GAR out of the city may increase Norway's survivability =/

[joerock22]

It's quite stupid that moving the GAR out of the city may increase Norway's survivability =/

I don't think so. To me, it's like the defender leaving the city to defend a strategic chokepoint on the road.

It's a pretty neat little strategy. Kudos to the original poster for being creative.