Tactics

[hazelbark]

It seems like squares aren't that robust.
Can you check we did this right?

Today we had Russian Dragoons charge French Legere. Both Average Drilled no attachments.

French passed their test and formed square. Which wasn't easy 2 d6 either one needed a 5.

So no defensive fire.
No firing in defensive phase.
Close combat
Dragoons get 6 dice needing 5s (re-rolling 1s as they had a divisional general fighting.
Legere get 4 dice needing 4s.
On average each should do 2 hits. But...
The Dragoons did 2 hits and Legere did 0.
So the Legere are disorderd.
Combat Resolution. The Legere are in square so halt. i.e. don't move.
So do cavalry pursue? Looks like it. Then since the cavalry catch the square is another round of combat fought?

[BrettPT]

Dragoons get 6 dice needing 5s (re-rolling 1s as they had a divisional general fighting.

If the Dragoons were a small unit, they should have only got 4 dice as "...other ...situations" (see last bullet point on page 56 table).

So do cavalry pursue?

Sort of. Non-disordered cavalry must "pass though" (see page 66). They are placed on the far side of the square with their rear touching the square, then pursue d6+2 straight ahead. If there is insufficient space to place them on the far side, the cavaly retire instead.

Cheers
Brett

[hazelbark]

Dragoons get 6 dice needing 5s (re-rolling 1s as they had a divisional general fighting.

If the Dragoons were a small unit, they should have only got 4 dice as "...other ...situations" (see last bullet point on page 56 table).

D'yoh. Was looking for that but missed it.

[hazelbark]

So do cavalry pursue?

Sort of. Non-disordered cavalry must "pass though" (see page 66). They are placed on the far side of the square with their rear touching the square, then pursue d6+2 straight ahead. If there is insufficient space to place them on the far side, the cavaly retire instead.

yes but you don't "pass through" until the end of the combat phase. (Beginning of that section page 66). So that point hasn't been reached yet.
So should a 2nd round of close combat be fought?

I didn't think through the insufficient wording, but I see it now. So if you are close up enough behind you bounce the Cavalry away. Good to know. Need more troops!

[BrettPT]

but you don't "pass through" until the end of the combat phase. (Beginning of that section page 66). So that point hasn't been reached yet.
So should a 2nd round of close combat be fought?

No, my understanding is that a "2nd round" means that close combat will roll over to the following player's turn if no-one is forced to retire.
This would only happen if neither side managed to get at least a disorder on the other (and would never happen in cavalry v. infantry fights as the cavalry would pass through if they suffered no loss).

It might be worth noting that in the 100 or so playtest games I have seen, I only recall combat going to a 2nd round once (excepting in a Waterloo re-fight where we stuffed up the rules for Hugomont).

Cheers
Brett

[Chasseur]

Hi,

1. Needing a 5 or better on either of the dice is a 56% chance - just better than even.

2. The square gets to perform defensive fire. Even if you failed the CMT, then the square would drop from Steady to Disordered but still gets to defensive fire (just with 1/3rd less dice). This firing is at close range, so quite often you will find the Cavalry will lose a Cohesion or 2. Or at least require a CMT and a Command Point to continue the assault.
If the Cavalry do not make it into the square, then they will also cop fire in the following firing round - nasty for the Cavalry.
If the Cavalry do make it into the square, then they are likely to be disordered, and lose 1/3rd dice from the combat.

Hope this helps.

And I concur with Brett. In all the playtest games I have seen (although nowhere near 100) I have only seen combat go to a second round once.

Cheers,
John Shaw

[BrettPT]

2. The square gets to perform defensive fire. Even if you failed the CMT, then the square would drop from Steady to Disordered but still gets to defensive fire (just with 1/3rd less dice). This firing is at close range, so quite often you will find the Cavalry will lose a Cohesion or 2. Or at least require a CMT and a Command Point to continue the assault.

That's interesting. We have been playing that the square does not actually get to shoot unless it was in square to begin with (in which case it would not have needed to take a CT for being charged by cavalry, and has the option to stand and shoot charging cavalry).

If the infantry was in tactical when charged, they had the choice to either: stand and shoot - relying on stopping the cavalry with firepower, or form into square, forgoing the option to shoot in favour of scurrying into a new formation.

After the infantry player decides what to do,regardles sof his choice, he will then take a Cohesion Test for infantry being charged by mounted when not in square. The infantry will drop a level if this CT is failed. If he chose to go to square, he is now a disordered square. If he choose to stand and shoot, he is in serious trouble!

It is one of the cool aspects of the game in my view. Do I play it safe and go to square, or do I take a punt at staying in formation, hope to pass my CT and blast the cavalry out of their saddles?

Page 32 (defensive fire) says that "If the unit being assaulted chooses to stand and fire...[you shoot defensive fire]" We have taken this to mean that infantry who change formation as a charge reaction are not "standing" and so get no defensive shooting.

I assume this is correct?

Cheers
Brett

[Scrumpy]

I'm guessing that was one of many things we got wrong in our game yesterday. In 6 months time we'll look back & laugh at how wrong we were.

[Chasseur]

Hi Brett,

It makes sense Brett.
In the normal Firing phase, Page 48 UNITS ALLOWED TO FIRE, "It must not have changed formation or retired as a reaction to an assault earlier this move".
So if the square cannot fire in the next phase, the Firing phase, because it reacted - then it should not be able to fire even earlier - that is, in the Assault phase immediately after it reacted.

So the square would not get to fire.

As you say this leaves the player with an interesting choice - stand and fire and hope the Cavalry does not contact you. Or form square and most likely see the Cavalry off in combat.

Cheers,
John Shaw

[Scrumpy]

To clarify that charge sequence from our game yesterday...

1st Dragoons charged the Legere, 2nd Dragoons charged some skirmishing Hussars who evaded, leaving the 2nd to swerve and hit the foot.
The foot fired after forming square driving the 1st Dragoons back, but missed the 2nd, allowing them to charge home on the square.

This was wrong then as the foot should not have been able to fire at all ?

[BrettPT]

That's my understanding.

The square cuold only have fired if it was already formed - ie if the player had of anticiapted the cavalry charge in his previous movement phase and gone into square.

Cheers
Brett

[donm]

Scrumpy,

Not sure about the second unit swerving into the square, see 'wheeling during assault move' page 29.

Also see 'Evade moves' page 31, you can only charge another enemy within 2MU of the original target etc.

Don

[hazelbark]

but you don't "pass through" until the end of the combat phase. (Beginning of that section page 66). So that point hasn't been reached yet.
So should a 2nd round of close combat be fought?

No, my understanding is that a "2nd round" means that close combat will roll over to the following player's turn if no-one is forced to retire.
This would only happen if neither side managed to get at least a disorder on the other (and would never happen in cavalry v. infantry fights as the cavalry would pass through if they suffered no loss).

It might be worth noting that in the 100 or so playtest games I have seen, I only recall combat going to a 2nd round once (excepting in a Waterloo re-fight where we stuffed up the rules for Hugomont).

Well that is not what the rules appear to say>?
In this case the Cavarly did not take a hit and the infantry disorderd. So the outcome was a halt. The cavalry in good order woudl then fight again? That's what it looks like in the rules before pass through.

[hazelbark]

Not sure about the second unit swerving into the square, see 'wheeling during assault move' page 29.

Also see 'Evade moves' page 31, you can only charge another enemy within 2MU of the original target etc.

It was LC within 2 MU and in skirmisher order and diced to stand and failed so had to evade.

[donm]

The cavalry cannot stay in contact, as it clearly states that the cavalry must pass through.

As there is only one round of combat per move, then the cavalry must pass through at the end of the combat phase and so will not be in contact for the next combat phase.

Don

[hazelbark]

The cavalry cannot stay in contact, as it clearly states that the cavalry must pass through.

As there is only one round of combat per move, then the cavalry must pass through at the end of the combat phase and so will not be in contact for the next combat phase.

Not trying to be obtuse.

1) Pass through "at the end of the combat phase". P 66 1st words in ppass through section.
2) 2nd round of fighting. P 66 2nd bullet, "enemy units contact during the 1st half of a pursuit move..." "...another combat phase" Then lower down in that graph it calls these "2nd round combats".

Missed that the combat phase can be done twice in a row and "2nd round" is a just odd wording.

OK. I agree with what you say now.

So not obtuse, just having the dickens of a time parsing this.

[donm]

I agree that some of the wording is not consistant.

It was one of the problems our group encountered when we first started play testing.

It is worth persisting with as they give a very good game.

Don

[nickdives]

Not sure I am happy with an "emergency" square not being able to fire once formed. Working on the premise that the cavalry are charging from the front, say out of 4 Coys 3 have to adjust to form 3 sides of the square, what does the 4th do? Have a brew, run about like headless chickens or stand ready to fire?

[BrettPT]

Not sure what the 4th side of the square would have been doing, however as a game mechanism, the stand and shoot or form sqaure is a good one, as it adds player choice.

One of the early themes on the play-testers forum was the desirability of bringing player decision making into as many aspects of the game as reasonably possible.

Some wargames rules involve decision making only to the extent of who should launch a charge, and where you move in the movement phase. Much of the rest of some systems simply involve going through the rule mechanics and applying dice outcomes, with little decision making (ie input) by the player.

FoGN brings a lot of player decision making into the assault phase. The active player has to decide how many CPs he think he will need to drive an attack home and allocate them to the relevant DC. He then has the decision on what charges to declare and - if his asault troops take casualties from defensive fire - whether or not to attempt a CMT to charge his unit(s) home. When facing cavalry attack on his infantry, a defending player has a real, and sometimes difficult, choice to make as to whether or not to form emergency square.

Other areas where some player input is present in FoGN is in the shooting phase - how a player allocates his dice between targets, and in the recovery phase. You can only recover 1 unit per commander, a rule which forces a player to decide which unit he will attempt to recover if (as is generally the case in the later stages of the game) more than one unit in his command needs recovering.

If only on the basis of making the game more interesting as a game I like the 'form square or shoot, but not both, rule. If you want your squares to shoot, you can always form square in your own movement phase rather than doing so as an 'emergency' square.

Cheers
Brett

[donm]

what does the 4th do? Have a brew, run about like headless chickens or stand ready to fire?

Probably stand there worrying that the other sides of the square will not be formed in time and they will all be cut down like dogs.

If you look at the period as a whole, it was very rare for infantry to have time to form square once the cavalry where too close.

If we are talking about 15mm figures, heavy cavalry charge 8 MU or in real terms 536 yards. if a man can run 100 mtres in approx 10 seconds a horse at full tilt should cover this distance in under 50 seconds. Do you think a unit of approx 1200 men could form a square in that time. It will probably take you that long to communicate the order to the whole unit, bearing in mind the noise, smoke and confusion of a battle.

I prefer rules that make you form squares in plenty of time.

If you are prepared in these rules to risk the test, I think I would be more than happy to declare the charge. Lancers are very tasty against infantry not in square.

Don