trigger for 5th Guards tank Army in Prohkorovka

[oldmvsguy]

Not meant to be a spoiler - just a design point question about what triggers 5th Guard Tank Army, and wondering if it should happen sooner - there is a warning about it in the scenarion start notes, so I expected to get smacked at some point during the advance on Prohkorovka.

FWIW - force at start:

7 infantry (4 grenadier (SE units), three pioneer)
8 PZIVH
4 Panther D
7 Tiger (2 SE units)
2 KV-1B
2 KV85 (thanks to Kursk Armory North!)
1 recon
6 21cm towed arty
6 FW190
5 JU87B

Playing DLC43 at Colonel level - just finished Prohkorovka. Captured the the last objective hex in the city of Prohkorovka and only saw a couple of units from 5th Guards Tank. Looking at the map afterwards, there are quite a number of Soviet units remaining... I was cautious in the advance on Prohkorovka, as I expected a flood of 3-4 star Soviet tanks to arrive at any time - so there was no rush by my units past the flanks of the city. Should the trigger point for 5th Guards Tank be the capture of any hex in Prohkorovka? Just asking - eventually will find out if the same holds true at General/FM levels.

Having great fun playing this game - keep up the great work!

[Aloo]

Lucky you I tried taking the airfield east of Prohkorovka and flanking the city from there. Had to retreat South West very quickly as I was not prepared for this Lost one SE PzIII N and took a bit of damage in other units.

Luckily at the end of the scenario I got an SE Tiger

[charonjr]

Spoiler:






















The airfield to the east and maybe the city behind the river to the north seem to be triggers.

[brettz123]

I think it should be changed to getting within so many hexes of Prohkorovka. They didn't get going until too late when I played through.

[kverdon]

I saw this as well. I finished the battle with a fairly large Sovliet force to the NE of Prohkorovka that had not engaged me yet.

Even worse was the next battle at Dnipropetrovsk where I won on Turn 5 with 2 Large Solviet Armies to the north and east that never engaged. Not that they were ever going to get accross the river mind you

Are these triggers working right?

thanks,

Kevin

[charonjr]

Well, your early win was triggered but yourself taking the last VH - and missing out some decent prestige per turn this way since it is a defensive scenario

[Kerensky]

Yup, it's possible to blitz the Russians to preempt their own offensive, very much intentional.

[brettz123]

Yup, it's possible to blitz the Russians to preempt their own offensive, very much intentional.

Ehhhh not sure I like that. It would have been a rather nasty surprise to have them come at me as I began to encircle the city

[charonjr]

I think Kerensky's comment was about the later scenario

[brettz123]

I think Kerensky's comment was about the later scenario

That makes more sense. Probably should have realized that myself!

[kverdon]

Hmm, maybe I need to revisit Dnipropetrovsk, takes things a tad slower and do some Bear Baiting

Kevin

[Kerensky]

This came up during the BETA, but we wanted the scenario to work this way.

After a potentially VERY tough time at Prokhorovka, we wanted to give our players an opportunity to escape further punishment in the immediately following scenario.

It was also an experiment for a new concept, that is being able to go on the offensive in what is supposed to be a defensive scenario in order to win quickly, but it seems to just have lead to much confusion.
Because of that, I don't know if we will see more scenarios along this line of design. Maybe though, after all this was a very common tactic of Rommel in Africa.

[kverdon]

I can see the benefit in what you were trying to do. After a grueling battle a quick win could help replenish the prestige pool and help rebuild losses. Maybe a hint in the briefing about a "bold counterstroke" or something would help.

Kevin

[brettz123]

I can see the benefit in what you were trying to do. After a grueling battle a quick win could help replenish the prestige pool and help rebuild losses. Maybe a hint in the briefing about a "bold counterstroke" or something would help.

Kevin

The briefing does mention attacking to destroy the artillery before it can start to pound you.

[kverdon]

Actually, that's in the NEXT scenario Kremenchug

I can see the benefit in what you were trying to do. After a grueling battle a quick win could help replenish the prestige pool and help rebuild losses. Maybe a hint in the briefing about a "bold counterstroke" or something would help.

Kevin

The briefing does mention attacking to destroy the artillery before it can start to pound you.

[El_Condoro]

This came up during the BETA, but we wanted the scenario to work this way.

After a potentially VERY tough time at Prokhorovka, we wanted to give our players an opportunity to escape further punishment in the immediately following scenario.

It was also an experiment for a new concept, that is being able to go on the offensive in what is supposed to be a defensive scenario in order to win quickly, but it seems to just have lead to much confusion.
Because of that, I don't know if we will see more scenarios along this line of design. Maybe though, after all this was a very common tactic of Rommel in Africa.

I haven't played the scenario but from reading these posts the confusion comes from players seeing that there are Russians around that don't attack. Perhaps just make them appear and trigger at the same time - that way if the trigger is not 'tripped' the player is none the wiser.

[brettz123]

This came up during the BETA, but we wanted the scenario to work this way.

After a potentially VERY tough time at Prokhorovka, we wanted to give our players an opportunity to escape further punishment in the immediately following scenario.

It was also an experiment for a new concept, that is being able to go on the offensive in what is supposed to be a defensive scenario in order to win quickly, but it seems to just have lead to much confusion.
Because of that, I don't know if we will see more scenarios along this line of design. Maybe though, after all this was a very common tactic of Rommel in Africa.

I haven't played the scenario but from reading these posts the confusion comes from players seeing that there are Russians around that don't attack. Perhaps just make them appear and trigger at the same time - that way if the trigger is not 'tripped' the player is none the wiser.

That would be a good trigger. I think it should be if a player unit is seen by the AI they trigger though.

[Kerensky]

Except we've had too many complaints about magically 'appearing' units in the past. That option really isn't on the table anymore.

[El_Condoro]

The complaints about Wassigny were that the units appeared behind the front line of the player (or were able to move there quickly) - if units come onto the map, out of sight of the player and where the Russian front line is and not among player units, I don't think there would be any complaints.

[Kerensky]

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