rules Question re skirmishers

[alasdair2204]

Hi

had a game yesterday and a query came up at what factor if any do skirmishers (in skirmish formation) fire at medium range, there is a factor at short range, do they fire as Light Infantry but we assumed that was a light infantry battalion in normal formation not deployed as skirmishers.

cheers

Alasdair

[BrettPT]

Hi Alasdair

I haven't received my copy of the published rules yet, but from the beta version Light Infantry in skirmish formation fire at medium range the same as light infantry in tactical - ie 5 dice for small units, 6 for large.

I assume this hasn't changed in the published version.

Cheers
Brett

[terrys]

had a game yesterday and a query came up at what factor if any do skirmishers (in skirmish formation) fire at medium range, there is a factor at short range, do they fire as Light Infantry but we assumed that was a light infantry battalion in normal formation not deployed as skirmishers.

Skirmishers are still light infantry - so have 'normal' medium range firing.
At close range they have a differnet factor to light infantry in tactical formation, which is why there is a seperate entry.

[hazelbark]

I am having trouble finding the skirmisher rules.

in the formation rules page 85

light infantry use their two front bases "should be replaced with skirmisher bases"

Where is a description of a "skirmisher base"?

It also says "light infantry can be formed up in skirmish order." I am having problems finding that too. Skirmisher order i see its effects in places but do you just decide you are in skirmisher order?

[ulysisgrunt]

I have the same problem; How many skirmishers per base, what should the battalion look like if formed as light infantry, and how do they fire?

Danny Weitz

[terrys]

I am having trouble finding the skirmisher rules.

I haven't received my copy of the rules (Ian ?), so page numbers may not be correct - but:

in the formation rules page 85
light infantry use their two front bases "should be replaced with skirmisher bases"
Where is a description of a "skirmisher base"?

Pg 7
"the standard for Infantry is 8 figures to a base, 4 wide 2 deep and for Cavalry it is 3 wide 1 deep. Artillery is one gun model plus 3 or 4 gunners to a base. Skirmishers and Irregular light Cavalry have a reduced number of figures on a base."
Obviously for cavalry this most likely means 2 figures, for infantry it could mean as many as 6 or as few as 2. We don't define how many figures per base, since it depends upon what 'looks' best - and that's often dependent on manufacturer. I use 3 or 4 fiugres on my skirmisher bases (definately 4 if 'old' minifigs).

It also says "light infantry can be formed up in skirmish order." I am having problems finding that too. Skirmisher order i see its effects in places but do you just decide you are in skirmisher order?

"Glossary of terms - Pg 107
Skirmishers:
All of the following are considered to be Skirmishers:
• Units of Infantry entirely in Skirmish formation.
• All units of Irregular light Cavalry
• Units of Regular light Cavalry deployed in single rank (Extended Line)."

Changing to skirmish order (for light infantry only) is a formation change, as is forming single rank for light cavalry - it doesn't make infantry fire any differently or more effectively. We don't place 'clouds' of skirmisher on the table - we tried that and it slowed the game down tremendously with no benefit in game terms. A unit is considered to have an intrinsic skirmisher capability (and a 6" range) if it has any troops (of at least company strength) within the formation:
"Pg 88
SKIRMISHERS
Most reformed infantry units have integral light companies to provide a nominal Skirmish capability. This is reflected in a unit’s ability to fire at the 6MU Skirmish range. Some units do not have this capability."

Skirmishing does make you a less vulnerable target and allows you to move more freely. It also makes it less likely that you will get into 'combat'. There are no specific skirmishing troops - as in FOGA for example. An ability to skirmish purely reflects the number of men in the unit trained to fight as skirmishers. Only units that are 100% capable may form entirely into 'skirmish formation'.

Irregular light cavalry can only ever be in skirmish formation.

[hazelbark]

Changing to skirmish order (for light infantry only) is a formation change, as is forming single rank for light cavalry - it doesn't make infantry fire any differently or more effectively. We don't place 'clouds' of skirmisher on the table - we tried that and it slowed the game down tremendously with no benefit in game terms.

Irregular light cavalry can only ever be in skirmish formation.

OK. Honestly when i figure out the interactions there is clever stuff here. The whole attachments is an inspired approach. I think I really like the command and control system.

I see up front a formation called skirmish.
I see references to it elsewhere. But I don't see it defined. The glossary only solve the light cavarly bit. And I can't find a reference to moving to and from a skirmisher formation in the move or CMT rules. I may be blind.

Also up in the assault section it says infantry skirmishers cannot assult non-skirmishers. Does this mean according to page 85 that light infantry can't assualt non-skirmishers? That doesn't seem right. On page 85 there it says light infantry have half of its bases (front) should be shown as skirmisher bases when in normal order. Then it says when it is entirely in skirmish order all the bases should be replaced by skirmisher bases.

And who ever did the index ought to have their teeth removed with a rusty skate.

[terrys]

Also up in the assault section it says infantry skirmishers cannot assult non-skirmishers. Does this mean according to page 85 that light infantry can't assualt non-skirmishers? That doesn't seem right. On page 85 there it says light infantry have half of its bases (front) should be shown as skirmisher bases when in normal order. Then it says when it is entirely in skirmish order all the bases should be replaced by skirmisher bases.

The replacement of the front rank bases of light infantry is for 2 reasons:
1) So that they are easily recogniseable from line infantry
2) Assuming that players will use about half the number of figures on a skirmisher base, then, given the 2 extra bases required for light infantry if requires the same number of figures for a light infantry unit as for a line infantry unit.

>A light infantry unit is not a skirmisher unit.
>It has the capability of becoming a skirmisher unit if you use your move to 'reform' into skirmish formation.
Most of the time light infantry units will not be in skirmisher formation - they lose too much of their abilities if they do.

All units that have integral light companies can fire at 6MU - which represents the units pushing their light infantry up to 300yds ahead to exchange shots with the enemy. Those without - unreformed line infantry - cannot fire at 6MU (without attachments). Light infantry units have lots of light infantry companies (all), and therefore get more dice at 6MU whether in tactical, extended line or skirmisher formation. Changing their formation to 'skirmish' is really only useful when in rough terrain, because it reduces their combat ability and is actually quite rare on the battlefield.

[BrettPT]

I think the confusion might stem from an ancient mindest, where Light Infantry are skirmishers.

'Skirmishers' in FoG(N) are not a troop type but a formation.

The only time in playtest games that we tend to use skirmish formation is when traversing tricky terrain, or possibly when operating in a 'delay and evade' role against superior numbers of infantry (a tactic that turns to custard if an enemy cavalry unit turns up).

The main reason to change the rear bases of the light infantry unit to skirmishing bases (ie with less figures) is to remind you and your opponent the that the unit is in skirmish formation rather than tactical.

The infantry skirmish rules work reasonably well, although to my mind the cavalry skirmish rules may have some problems.

LC in a single line can 'horse archer' evade away from other cavalry with impunity. Enemy move up in their turn, in your turn you 'simple' move back to just over 3/5MU against HC/LC, his turn he charges and you evade - cannot be caught. It's your turn next so you go back to 3/5 MU away from him and repeat the process - at least until you hit the table edge!

LC in skirmish can also march up to a few millimetres from infantry or artillery. The infantry/artillery will then need a '6's to hit them with shooting (5, +1 for shooting at skirmishers). Infantry are not allowed to charge cavalry opponents and so are effectively pinned if they cannot get the 2 hits needed to inflict a cohesion loss on the cavalry - although the infantry/artillery may be able to get 2 units shooting at the mounted extended line, and the cavalry will also drop a dice when recovering cohesion if they do get hit (for being in extended line, if not on a hill).

Cheers
Brett

[terrys]

LC in a single line can 'horse archer' evade away from other cavalry with impunity. Enemy move up in their turn, in your turn you 'simple' move back to just over 3/5MU against HC/LC, his turn he charges and you evade - cannot be caught. It's your turn next so you go back to 3/5 MU away from him and repeat the process - at least until you hit the table edge!

I haven't experienced this as a problem. The increased movement of HC/LC compaired to the ancient rules means that they don't slow the enemy down all that much, and it doesn't take long to get to the edge of the table at 8/10 inches a move.

LC in skirmish can also march up to a few millimetres from infantry or artillery. The infantry/artillery will then need a '6's to hit them with shooting (5, +1 for shooting at skirmishers). Infantry are not allowed to charge cavalry opponents and so are effectively pinned if they cannot get the 2 hits needed to inflict a cohesion loss on the cavalry - although the infantry/artillery may be able to get 2 units shooting at the mounted extended line, and the cavalry will also drop a dice when recovering cohesion if they do get hit (for being in extended line, if not on a hill).

This can get a bit of a pain if an opponent does it constantly - and has the enough light cavalry to risk. He can stop a single infantry unit from advancing for a short while, but risks losing the cavalry if he hangs around for more than a move or two.

[BrettPT]

I haven't experienced this as a problem. The increased movement of HC/LC compaired to the ancient rules means that they don't slow the enemy down all that much, and it doesn't take long to get to the edge of the table at 8/10 inches a move.

You are correct, the table edge does approach pretty quickly compared to ancients.

This can get a bit of a pain if an opponent does it constantly - and has the enough light cavalry to risk. He can stop a single infantry unit from advancing for a short while, but risks losing the cavalry if he hangs around for more than a move or two.

Not so sure about this, I suspect that an couple of 32 point LC units could take an infantry division out of the game if that infantry does not have cavalry support. You only need to delay an enemy attack by a couple of turns to make a difference sometimes.
A variation on the trick is for the LC is to hover at just outside 2MU, especially when up against unreformed infantry. The unreformed chaps get one shot every pair of bounds (needing a 6 to hit) and have their advance effectively reduced to 2MU a move, the LC pulling back to just over 2MU again in their turns.

But perhaps this is not unreasonable and infantry shouldn't be walking around in cavalry country without some of its own to clear away LC skirmishers?

Anyway if it does prove to be a issue, there is an easy fix. Just errata the "target is skirmishers" -POA to "target is infantry skirmishers"

But picking at tidbits here. FoG(N) gives a really good game and the finished product looks great. Well done Terry and crew.

Cheers
Brett

[hazelbark]

The replacement of the front rank bases of light infantry is for 2 reasons:
1) So that they are easily recogniseable from line infantry
2) Assuming that players will use about half the number of figures on a skirmisher base, then, given the 2 extra bases required for light infantry if requires the same number of figures for a light infantry unit as for a line infantry unit.

>A light infantry unit is not a skirmisher unit.
>It has the capability of becoming a skirmisher unit if you use your move to 'reform' into skirmish formation.
Most of the time light infantry units will not be in skirmisher formation - they lose too much of their abilities if they do.

Changing their formation to 'skirmish' is really only useful when in rough terrain, because it reduces their combat ability and is actually quite rare on the battlefield.

OK so the figures are just for looks. I can savvy that.
Reform is another way of saying formation change. Both are refered to several places.
So we are to assume a "formation change" can be anything and there is a thing known as "skirmisher formation". An infantry unit can be single rank or double base deep and in skirmisher formation?

[david53]

Not so sure about this, I suspect that an couple of 32 point LC units could take an infantry division out of the game if that infantry does not have cavalry support. You only need to delay an enemy attack by a couple of turns to make a difference sometimes.
A variation on the trick is for the LC is to hover at just outside 2MU, especially when up against unreformed infantry. The unreformed chaps get one shot every pair of bounds (needing a 6 to hit) and have their advance effectively reduced to 2MU a move, the LC pulling back to just over 2MU again in their turns.

Not so sure I'm sure this was said about the LH in FOG AM, just before the world came down. These things will be picked up by wargamers thats what they do see either LH or Medium foot in FOG AM.

Still can just hope its not so.

Dave

[terrys]

An infantry unit can be single rank or double base deep and in skirmisher formation?

A LIGHT infantry unit can be in single rank (extended line) OR in double rank (tactical), AND also in skirmisher formation.

[terrys]

Not so sure about this, I suspect that an couple of 32 point LC units could take an infantry division out of the game if that infantry does not have cavalry support.

Given the 4 base width of the unit, it's likely to be fired upon by 2 enemy units. Any single loss of cohesion leaves it vulnerable to the 2nd shot at close range - which will cause it to waver on 2 hits and auto-break it with 4 hits. While its not easy to score 4 hits, you could be firing 10 or more dice - so perfectly possible.

Of course cavalry support negates the tactic entirely.

[hazelbark]

An infantry unit can be single rank or double base deep and in skirmisher formation?

A LIGHT infantry unit can be in single rank (extended line) OR in double rank (tactical), AND also in skirmisher formation.

Let me track this.
So skirmisher formation is not mutually exclusive with either tactical or extended line?

[BrettPT]

So skirmisher formation is not mutually exclusive with either tactical or extended line

My understanding is that infantry can be in skirmish order and two bases deep (tactical) or skirmish formation a single base deep (extended line). Either way you are still in skirmish formation and move as skirmishers. Non-iregular LC skirmishers will always be in extended line, in which case they will also count as being skirmishers.

Page 51, in the Extended Line section, says that you fire as 2 units "even if in Skirmish order".

As an extedned line of skirmishers you (naturally) take up greater frontage, and will fire at close range as two (skirmishing) units - however skirmishers shooting at close range are not very good, you only get 3 dice (doubled to 6 for being in in extended line) at a - POA. Extended Line skirmishers will also suffer the -1 dice on cohesion tests (see page 70).

The main reason I can see to form extended line with infantry skirmishers is if you need the frontage to stop enemy outflanking you.

Cheers
Brett

[hazelbark]

Thanks
While we are in skirmish formation. p 37 right column 4th bullet.
"Infantry in skirmish formation and irregular LC can move 1/2 in any direction. They may only do so if they are beyond 2 MU during all movement." (paraphrased)

1) I presume this means that if in 2 MU they are goverrned by all the other move rules and not that they actually can't move?
2) I presume a move directly to their rear (or if facing away their front) can still be at full speed?
3) So regular LC in single rank skirmish formation cannot move 1/2 in any direction?

[terrys]

1) I presume this means that if in 2 MU they are goverrned by all the other move rules and not that they actually can't move?

Correct (the movement table only mentions 'skirmishers' for this type of move, when it should be: infantry skirmishers and irregular light cavalry)
2) I presume a move directly to their rear (or if facing away their front) can still be at full speed?
Correct
3) So regular LC in single rank skirmish formation cannot move 1/2 in any direction?
Correct