Grand Campaign Unit Revisions - Update for GC42-43West

[VPaulus]

Maybe you can add to the thread title the word Update. I think it will be more visible.
Like this:
Single Player Unit Rebalancing - UpdateDLC43East !!

[charonjr]

Hi, I just finished The Hague and finally wanted to upgrade the transports for my captured Polish artillery, but there is no option to give them halftracks. Has this always been the case or am I missing something here?

[deducter]

Hi, I just finished The Hague and finally wanted to upgrade the transports for my captured Polish artillery, but there is no option to give them halftracks. Has this always been the case or am I missing something here?

This has always been the way it works. Since captured units have a "nopurchase" flag, it makes it impossible to purchase them, so you don't see it on the purchase screen, so you can't buy better transports for it. No other way around it currently.

[Uhu]

Deducter, could you please create a list for the DLC 39 and 40 changes? The others are very helpful so it would be good to see the whole. The change log, which is in the download pack is a little confusing - it would be also good to have a more structured one.
Thx!

[deducter]

Yeah, I admit the change log is not useful, it's basically my notes when I make changes. Rewriting it would probably take a week...

For GC39 and GC40, there are only minor changes. Most of it is listed under the "General Changes" part of the first post in this thread.

I'm trying to think of a better way to present information. If you want exact unit stats, it would take many pages to describe by text. I have to think of a more efficient way of doing it.

I have spent a lot of time doing this mod, and I tweak it as I play. I would be happy to hear any specific concerns about a unit, but don't worry too much about the unit stats except for 1943 which is still being tested.

[charonjr]

Just finished DLC '40 on Rommel using your mod (DV for each scenario) and as I have written in the other thread I think that while I like the idea of experience having a higher impact this leads to rarely damaged units like artillery/bombers even getting more powerful. I think that in order to compensate for this their cost should be raised drastically (maybe even double them).

My currenty core before any upgrades at the start of DLC '41:

Infantrie: 7 - all 10 STR (never used elite replacements)
2 Wehrmacht - **, 1 with a hero
1 Fallschirmjäger **, 1H
1 Gebirgsjäger **, 1H
2 Pioniere - *, 1H each
1 SE Gebirgsjäger **, 1H

Panzer: 7 - all 10 STR (never used elite replacements)
2 Pz 38(t) - */**, 1H each
1 Pz IIIF **, 1H
1 Pz IVD **
1 Somua S35 *
2 SE Pz IIIF - **, 1H each

1 SdKfz 231 6 Rad ** (10 STR, no elite reinforcements as well)

Artillerie: 6 - all at 13 STR, always are elite reinforced
2 10,5 cm ***, 1 with a hero
2 15cm ***, 1H each
1 StuG IIIA ***
1 Sturmpanzer ***, 1H

1 8,8 cm FlaK ***, 2 heroes (always elite reinforced)

Aircraft: 11 (bombers get elite reinforcements and are at STR 13, fighters only normal reinforcements)
3 Bf 109E 1**/2***, 1H each
3 Ju 87B ***, 1H each
2 Bf 110D ***, 1H each
2 Ju 88A ***
1 He 111H2 ***, 1H

All in all 33 core units with 7.4k prestige left at the moment and IIRC 1 only lost one core unit since '39, but since I usually don't reinforce during the scenario I sometimes eneded up with close to 50% of my forces behind my own lines to keep them out of danger.

In addition I tend to use as few aux units as possible and rather give my core units the kills.

Overall the moded units feel good - with artillery and bombers being too cheap, but the real test will be DLC '43 so it is hard to say anything meaningfull before.

[Uhu]

We discussed in other forum topic, that for some of us, the DLC's are even in Rommel mode very easy (although, the Vanila - the original - campaign was really hard for me with Rommel!). Deducter and I also decided to play the DLC's with Rommel and another 25-30% prestige reduction from the deployment-prestige (the prestige for capturing towns/airfields is not effected).

Another option is to play with Mannstein, although I prefer much more the Rommel, with the limited resources and well planned unit upgrade + purchase.

[quote="charonjr"]Just finished DLC '40 on Rommel using your mod (DV for each scenario) and as I have written in the other thread I think that while I like the idea of experience having a higher impact this leads to rarely damaged units like artillery/bombers even getting more powerful. I think that in order to compensate for this their cost should be raised drastically (maybe even double them).

[Uhu]

...and it is also useful to reduce the growinge rate of experience in the Gamerules file.

[deducter]

Thanks for the excellent feedback!

I actually play with -75% prestige even with capturing towns/cities halved and with per turn prestige/triggered prestige halved compared with Rommel. I use cheat codes to accomplish the latter. The reason I play like this instead of Manstein is mostly because I enjoy having all the various German units, like PzI and PzII in Russia. I just love a varied core. On Manstein I feel compelled to have the latest model in everything if I want them to have a reasonable chance of surviving. I used to buy recon units as "tanks" so they would protect my more valuable units. Seems gamey, but no real way to prevent it, as I do need recon units.

Interesting core Charonjr. I have 3 stars on nearly all of my units after GC40, I do use elite reinforcements during the deployment screen. I find having 3 star frontline units is actually very powerful, although not necessary to win.

Here are my ideas on how to adjust artillery:
1. Increase price. I was going to say 25-50%, but apparently that might not even be enough.
2. Reduce ROF globally by 20%.
3. Reduce SA by 1-2.

Or some combination of the above ideas. All 3 would be too much. I'm leaning more towards the ROF idea myself.

On how to adjust air units:
1. Reduce ammo of all air units by 1.
2. Increase price of bombers more, say 25-50%.

Edit: I used to mod the expgrowth rate to be halved, but it was brutal. It took way too long for frontline units to gain exp.

[deducter]

I also have another radical idea. I was playing around with DLC43, and the Panthers and Tigers feel better, but one problem remains: Overstrenthing and elite reinforcing them is still really, really good. This is due to their skyhigh 11-12 INI, which balloons to 14-15 at 3 stars, making even 3 star T-34s have no chance of touching them. Perhaps this is realistic, but it doesn't seem good for game balance. Similarly, 3 star KV-85s are a bit too good against 3 star StuG IIIG, as their INI of 13 overpowers the INI of 6 + 1+ 3 = 10 for the StuG IIIG. It's not as bad in the case of the Russian heavy tanks, my main concern is still the German heavy tanks.

My idea is this: Eliminate the experience bonus for initiative. This would make the heavy armor significantly more vulnerable in combat, to the point where overstrength on high INI units isn't as overpowered as it is now. Infantry combat would be more or less unchanged, however, elite Panzer IIIs and Panzer IVs will be somewhat less powerful. I think this is fine. Keep in mind that green units you buy in 1942 and 1943 will be fighting better with this change, and I assure you that you will have to buy new units in those years.

[Uhu]

Thanks for the answers, Deducter!
But I have another... How far did you have time/enery to test the scenarios of the DLC's with the modded units? I mean, the balance of course.

[dragos]

You can't reach the most realistic outcome unless the player will start to regularly lose core units or be denied DV or MV, and in this case some players will stop using the mod because they can't stand losing core units. Whatever tweaks do you employ to equipment, as far as the casualties screen shows something like 2:200 casualties ratio, this is absolutely on the domain on phantasmagorical. Since you have to tweak the equipment file to handicap the player to overcome the limitation of the computer AI (even with the vanilla eqp in 1939-41 Germany don't have better equipment than the other nations) then you have an ingrate mission to twist some facts to the limit in order to give a sense of realism.

Since you can't have a perfect AI, all the player can do is to have a little role play and send the best units in risky situations and bear losing them.

[deducter]

Thanks for the answers, Deducter!
But I have another... How far did you have time/enery to test the scenarios of the DLC's with the modded units? I mean, the balance of course.

Not too far, just ran some test cases for 1943, haven't played the scenarios. My main concern is the overwhelming power of elite + overstrength on heavy armor and also artillery. Air units have this problem too. I thought about increasing the overstrength cost, but then the player has even less of an incentive to overstrength their medium armor/infantry.

Another idea is to set the starting strength of heavy armor to be lower by about 20%, which is reasonably realistic. This may in fact be the best solution.

You can't reach the most realistic outcome unless the player will start to regularly lose core units or be denied DV or MV, and in this case some players will stop using the mod because they can't stand losing core units. Whatever tweaks do you employ to equipment, as far as the casualties screen shows something like 2:200 casualties ratio, this is absolutely on the domain on phantasmagorical. Since you have to tweak the equipment file to handicap the player to overcome the limitation of the computer AI (even with the vanilla eqp in 1939-41 Germany don't have better equipment than the other nations) then you have an ingrate mission to twist some facts to the limit in order to give a sense of realism.

Since you can't have a perfect AI, all the player can do is to have a little role play and send the best units in risky situations and bear losing them.

I'm not really sure what your suggestion is, but if you could clarify that would be great. For the record, this mod is meant to be a difficulty-enhancing mod. I don't have any problems with players being denied DV using this mod, but MV is generally easy to achieve for most scenarios, so I doubt that will be a problem.

[dragos]

I meant that having the current AI, you can't expect to have a realistic outcome unless you twist the equipment so much that it becomes either unrealistic (much worse stats for German equipment compared to other countries) or inconsistent by arbitrary increasing the cost of some units that their purchase would become prohibitive even on non Rommel level. As long as the player can win scenarios without losing a single unit but destroying scores of enemy units in the process there is something wrong in the mechanics as a whole.

While I see the point of your work, I'm saying that no matter what you do with the equipment, you can't achieve realistic results unless you tweak it so much that it becomes absurd. And in the end it's a matter of role playing. Those who can't bear losing core units will not be happy with a mod that can't let them win or have them experienced units destroyed.

[deducter]

I do want to maintain historical accuracy as best I can. The German equipment is still superior to their Soviet counterparts. For instance, I did buff the German medium tanks, and now the T-34/43 has INI 8 compared with the Panzer IVG/H with INI 9. At Kursk, there were 100 Tigers and 200 Panthers, compared with 2k Panzer IIIs/Panzer IVs/StuG IIIs. The heavy German tanks didn't even do that well, many of them broke down in the field or got destroyed by mines. The Germans very well may have had more success launching Citadel in May before they got the Panthers as opposed to July, so that the Soviets didn't have time to build 7(!) layers of defenses. In the vanilla game, Tigers cost 703, while a Panzer IVH cost 486. In other words, you could get 1.5 Panzer IVs for the cost of a Tiger. That is in no way historical. In my mod Tigers cost 1230, which is better. The Panzer IVG, still a very common tank at Kursk, cost 408 prestige. So you can get 3 Panzer IVs for a Tiger. And the Panzer IVG has better attack and INI now, making it the German counterpart to the T-34/43.

After reflection, I think the following needs to be changed:
1. Artillery needs -20% ROF. This way, a 13 strength elite artillery will perform about the same as a 10 strength elite artillery, which seems about right.
2. Artillery costs go up slightly.
3. Bomber cost go up significantly. I don't mind the German air force being too good early on, this is historically accurate.
4. Max strength of Tigers = 7, Max strength of Panthers = 8, no change to initiative rules.

[dragos]

The heavy German tanks didn't even do that well, many of them broke down in the field or got destroyed by mines.

A new stat "reliability" would have been awesome. For example a reliability of 75 would mean that an average of 75% of the strength (based on dice roll) would fire during the attack or defense phase of combat, the rest being left out due to technical problems.

[charonjr]

Can the ROF be moded for armor as well? Setting it lower for the German heavies at first and then raising it over time might simulate the reliability problems fairly well. But this would mean changing the values during a scenario which might not be possible.

Can new unit subclasses be added in? This might be used as a band-aid to raise the ROF over time.

[deducter]

Can the ROF be moded for armor as well? Setting it lower for the German heavies at first and then raising it over time might simulate the reliability problems fairly well. But this would mean changing the values during a scenario which might not be possible.

Can new unit subclasses be added in? This might be used as a band-aid to raise the ROF over time.

You can change ROF for any unit I believe, but I'd rather change the max strength for Tigers and Panthers, so they would at least be at risk of being destroyed. The AI can and will attack 7 strength Tigers and inflict losses on them.

Just tested Kharkov 43 with the default core on Rommel. A challenging battle. DV 20/20. Lots of things are working right.
1. Tigers no longer godly/invincible, but still very useful on the defensive and in critical positions.
2. German medium tanks perform quite well.
3. Overstrengthing the SE units is a good choice, as they are cheaper (except SE Tigers/Panthers).
4. Artillery with -20% ROF feels about right, it's already much tougher now to suppress AI units. That 3 star engineer at the center of Kharkov along with the hordes of SMG Inf 43 are no joke. I think Ivanov would be pleased with how tenaciously the Soviet infantry fought in that city.
6. Bf 109s are doing very well, and they are cheap to boot. FW-190 still superior, but not the only choice that it once was.
7. Il-2 are truly tough foes. Brought 4 fighters to attack one, and it survived with 4 strength. Shot it down with an 88.
8. AI purchased T-34/40 to counterattack me with, I like that a lot, instead of the old KV-1C spamming. Will add nopurchase flag to the T-34/40 and T-34/41 though, so as to make the AI buy T-34/43.

[Tarrak]

You seems to be pleased with the reduction of max strength for the heavy German tanks but i am a bit cautious when it comes to manipulating unit strength. This seems to be the most critical parameter in Panzer Corpse ... remember the Conscripts which got really bad stats but can be a real pain with their 15 strength.

Additionally this kind of makes them weaker which is not really historically correct. They was the superior tanks on the battle field. The problem was them being really expensive to produce and Germany not being able to field enough of them. Maybe making them REALLY expensive would be the better approach. If their costs are raised enough then they may become what they was in history: A force to be reckoned with on the battlefield but rare in appearance.

[Uhu]

Good to hear the development!
It fell me in, when I next time start to play the DLC's from 1939 (I will do that, but I'm very busy now with the making of the Italian Campaign 2.0), I will not use/sell any SE units. I don't like it to get them "for free", on random base and I think, it will make the gameplay also much harder. It is possible to set the "max elite units" in the scenario editor to 0, but it will works also, if I disband them after the first turn (to get no prestige for them).