Ardennes scenario, frozen ground

[Delta66]

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post historical issues about scenarios, but after browsing through the various forums, it seemed the most revelant.

Foreword: I understand that Panzer Corps is first and foremost a game, and it doesn't pretend to be the most accurate historical computer simulation. Nevertheless the game has more than just historical flavour, and is reasonnably accurate in many instances.
I also understand that their could be playability and balance issues.

Ground conditions:
Playing the Ardennes scenario, I was surprised to see that the ground was frozen. Which following the Panzer Corps rules, frozes rivers and made them a much easier obstacle to combat.

According to my historical knowledge. Combat reports mention that during the campaign opening (mid december) rain had a strong impact on the german's initial assault. As the water-saturated soil turned into mud. The temperatures during the first weeks of the offensive where barely above 0°C during daytime, getting below 0 only during nighttime. There was a thaw on december the 18th. And the temperatures were not low enough for the ground to freezes until the 23th (which is turn 8, out of 18 in the scenario). Reports indicate that vehicule including tracked ones were mired as soon as they left the roads.

Snow started to fall from mid november but doesn't stay on the ground because of the frequent thawing. Significant snow falls only started after christmas. Many pictures of the battles depict a snowy ground, but in many cases this is because the pictures where taken a week or two (or even later) after the combats.

Accounts of the battle depict the intense struggle for the bridges in the Amblève valley in particular and the use of bridging enginneer on all the front. In any event I doubt that a river as large as the Meuse was frozen.

As it is the frozen ground in the scenario make things easier for the Germans, I think that mud ground conditions would be more accurate.

Tiger I:
Another surprise was to see a Tiger I tank used by the northern group,in this scenario hex (27,13). To my knowledge it should be a Tiger II.
1ss Pz Division had at the start of the battle: 34 Pz IV, 37 Panthers and 30 KingTiger.
and 12 ss Pz Division 39 Pz IV and 38 Panthers.

[robman]

My understanding has always been that the weather conditions reflect what might have been possible in a given place at a give time of year--not necessarily in the same real, historical year, but at least plausibly in some other year. The fact that "everything freezes" regardless of prior days of frost, river size, etc., seems to be a function of the relative simplicity of the game.

[Delta66]

I understand your point, Actually I don't disagree at all. But within the game simplicity and rules.
I think that a snow weather, but with mud ground conditions, would better portray the historical situation, without adding much complexity.

[El_Condoro]

Weather is completely controlled by the scenario settings. There is a percentage chance for Rain, Snow and Clouds, and the rest is Clear. e.g. 10% Clouds; 20% Rain; 5% Snow = 65% Clear. There is also a ground moisture setting, which gets affected in-game by the weather each turn. In other words, real-world weather conditions are irrelevant - a scenario in January could be completely clear if the weather is not set correctly.

Muddy ground conditions might be more realistic (debatable) but they make for a slower game. For me, too much mud is boring in a game and would really make the head-long attack of KG Pieper, for example, far too easy to cut off - no fun at all! My gripe with Ardennes has been the way the snow can suddenly clear to be nice green if the weather conditions allow it.

Anyway, you could copy the scenario files and customise the weather and see how that plays out, if you like.

[dragos]

The "Bastogne" episode from Band of Brothers depicted the woods surrounding Bastogne fully covered by snow. Since it's not technically possible to make some parts of the map snow and some parts muddy, I think it's better to have overall snow than overall mud.

[Delta66]

Anyway, you could copy the scenario files and customise the weather and see how that plays out, if you like.

Sure I'll give it a try, using the cheat code to set ground condition to Mud. At least for the first turns (once I finish, my long 39-45 campaign )

I agree that Mud bog down the game tempo, and I also favour a faster gameplay. It would be deadly boring if all scenarios were played in mud, but a few turns from time to time is a different thing. I suppose you take the time to include mud ground in the game for some reasons.

Beside "historical" or "realism" issues which are of course debatable, I played the scenario at Field Marshall level, and found it was to easy with all rivers frozen.

Edit: Actually I suggested Mud mostly as a way to unfroze rivers

[El_Condoro]

Yes, I completely agree that snow conditions should not freeze rivers necessarily. I have made a Nordwind scenario and had all sorts of trouble because I wanted snow conditions but didn't want the Rhine to freeze over! I ended up having to put high mountain terrain under the river overlays. Far from ideal.

[Mark50]

My gripe with Ardennes has been the way the snow can suddenly clear to be nice green if the weather conditions allow it.

I got that flip from white to green too while playing the scenario as the allies. Pretty annoying! I wish there was a way to not allow the transition from snow to grass without at least a turn of mud in between.

[Longasc]

I would be already content if scenarios which are SNOW in turn one would show the white tileset during deployment. This can often make for nasty surprises for the player.

[Delta66]

Yes, I completely agree that snow conditions should not freeze rivers necessarily. I have made a Nordwind scenario and had all sorts of trouble because I wanted snow conditions but didn't want the Rhine to freeze over! I ended up having to put high mountain terrain under the river overlays. Far from ideal.

Some board wargames differentiate rivers into two sorts, major rivers and minor rivers. I don't know the data structure used for terrain types, but maybe it would be possible to add a new terrain type. Major river that do not freeze in snow conditions.