Some Barbarossa Feedback

[Schnurri]

Playing a game with Panzergeneral and launched Barbarossa in May after getting Yugoslavia last Fall and skipping Greece. Have made no effort in Africa and Panzergeneral is in the process of mopping that up and will be threatening Italy soon.

Just finished Sept. 10 move and have advanced pretty far and the rail rules haven't created any huge problems though it is difficult to rail troops to the furthest point I'd like.

Have captured: Rostov, Stalingrad,Voronezh, Orel, Tula, Rzhev, Kalinin, Novogorod, and Petrozavodsk. Leningrad not completely surrounded but should be next turn.

So, it seems an early Barbarossa can get quite far, though I am having trouble bringing up support troops. Could have gone into the Caucasus but elected to take Stalingrad and some troop concentrations instead.

The interesting thing will be how partisan activity will make things difficult, especially in winter when they will certainly capture a lot of rail depots - I can't garrison them all.

In another game where I am playing as Allies, the Axis took Spain, though I did a big intervention, then Sea Lion in 41 has taken Britain and he did a small 42 Barbarossa. That is where I ran into the problem with railing my Siberian reinforcements. I also note that I can't rail Russian troops in the Baltic countries even though I only lost Vilna and have since recaptured it.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Remember that rail depots don't have an increased chance to have partisans spawn. So the risk is little, but key rail depots is worth guarding just in case. It would hurt to lose the rail depot near the front line just when you need to rail several units from Germany.

I think the result of Barbarossa is encouraging. It means the Germans can still punch hard in 1941, but they can't get their full strength to a front line east of Rostov. That is promising and I hope testers who feared that the Axis would be too hampered can now look a little brighter at the situation.

[Morris]

Have captured: Rostov, Stalingrad,Voronezh, Orel, Tula, Rzhev, Kalinin, Novogorod, and Petrozavodsk. Leningrad not completely surrounded but should be next turn.

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It seems you already close to the victory ! It is a good Babarosa progress even before the patch . We will see how is our pbem going .

[Schnurri]

Have captured: Rostov, Stalingrad,Voronezh, Orel, Tula, Rzhev, Kalinin, Novogorod, and Petrozavodsk. Leningrad not completely surrounded but should be next turn.

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It seems you already close to the victory ! It is a good Babarosa progress even before the patch . We will see how is our pbem going .

I think you might be a little overly optimistic - not thinking victory at this point - just going to try to hold what I have over the winter. Panzergeneral is tough so I'm sure I'll have a tough time.

[Diplomaticus]

My RC16 PBEM's still have a long way to go, but I have a bit of data from a game vs. AI.

It definitely takes some getting used to, how much slower is the activation of rail. It's not just about reinforcing the leading edge of the offensive; it's also about units farther back who have to wait for cities/depots to get hooked up to the new rail gauge.

This translates into Axis choosing to move units when before I just would have railed them. Sometimes that's about panzers, so it means extra oil expenditure.

On the other hand, with some forward planning it isn't so very hard to make sure that enough corps & gars are in position to simply "walk" in behind the leading tanks & mech. Some of this forward planning means that the starting positions for all units in Barbarossa are more important than ever.

In general the new rail rules mean more oil expenditure for Axis. It would be worth while to try to track how oil levels compare to those in earlier AAR's.

In my game vs. the computer I deliberately raced my panzers out ahead of the truck supply to see how this affected the offensive. I found that, compared to the old rules, it does slow you down a bit and take an edge off effectiveness, but so long as you are brisk about taking cities/resources/depots, the truck supply catches up pretty quickly. It's the rail capability for reinforcements that feels dead slow.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Please remember to look at the Axis oil levels before and at the end of the 1941 offensive. If you get to the end of 1942 we would need the oil level at that time too.

In one of my games my Germans had 903 oil at the start of Barbarossa (May 1941). The Axis gain 54 oil per turn and I dropped down to 786 at the end of first turn. At the end of second turn I was down to 730. So the Germans lose about 50 oil per turn during the Summer in 1941. If the offensive lasts about 10 turns in means you drop from 900 to 400 oil. You regain maybe to 750 during the winter.

So far I don't see any problems with these numbers

[Cybvep]

Early Barbarossa can still bite and it is possible to take e.g. Leningrad in 1941 and destroy many Soviet units. One/two more guaranteed turn(s) of fair weather is a big advantage and I would advise anyone to start Barbarossa as soon as possible if they didn't reject the armistice or Fall Gelb wasn't unexpectedly bloody.

The new rules prevent the Germans from advancing too far in 1941, so in most games we will probably not see fall of Moscow in 1941. It is possible to reach Rostov, but I doubt that the Axis player will manage to take and hold it unless the Soviets suffered massive losses and cannot cover this front properly.

I like the fact that now various units have distinctively different roles in the East - ARMs are a must in order to capture as much territory as possible and allow the railway conversion to take place as soon as possible. Even if the Soviets recapture their cities eventually, they will have to convert the railways back to broad gauge, which will slow them if they are advancing fast. MECHs are great as ARM-supporters, as they are the only units which can more or less keep up the pace without using railways. You have to decide whether you want to be aggressive or conservative with your airforce, too - you can either move them to the frontline and lose more oil or wait for railway conversion, in which case you will have no air support.

The MP loss after loss of cities with Rail Capacity means that it's highly desirable to prioritise such cities, as it will hurt the Soviets in the long term.

Oil conservation during 1939-1940 is a must if you want to make a strong Barbarossa.

[Schnurri]

************PANZERGENERAL probably shouldn't read this*****************

In my Barbarossa, launched May 23 I started with 934 oil. Offensive largely end beginning of October with 566 oil remaining. Oil back up over 800 by following May. Had to do a lot of ARM movement over the winter to avoid getting wiped out by the Russians so it didn't come back as much as we would have liked.

I pushed all the way to Rostov/Stalingrad with the early start and managed to hang on over the winter. Got well past the Don but had to retreat to avoid taking losses. Completely surrounded Leningrad and it fell after two turns in the summer of 42. Moscow is an option as is the Caucasus but no decision yet what will be the focus. Depends on what the Allies are up to in other theatres.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I think this proves that the Germans still have a serious punch in 1941, but the Russians aren't completely lost. So the Germans have to be careful and form a good defensive line for the severe winter.

How did you manage to get reinforcement to the front line? Did they have to rail to a rear city or rail depot and move to the front or did the rail heads manage to catch your front line before the severe winter? Did you have to move outside truck supply?

[Schnurri]

I think this proves that the Germans still have a serious punch in 1941, but the Russians aren't completely lost. So the Germans have to be careful and form a good defensive line for the severe winter.

How did you manage to get reinforcement to the front line? Did they have to rail to a rear city or rail depot and move to the front or did the rail heads manage to catch your front line before the severe winter? Did you have to move outside truck supply?

Could rail most places except across the DON - there, the MECHs and ARM held out for the winter and in other areas I retreated back across the Don.

[JimR]

In an RC17 game where I am the Axis versus Alec's Allies, Barbarossa was launched on June 22, 1941. The Axis oil supplies at the start of Barbarossa were 849.

[richardsd]

In my game against Staffenburg I have managed to halt the 41 offensive in front of Stalingrad. To achieve this I had to draw off some TAC's with a diversion invasion in France without that diversion Stalingrad would have fallen and as happens a long summer could have been a disaster for the Russian's. I think the balance for a standard game probably is about right. A better player than me would probably get the same result without having to do the diversion.

The new Morris strategy I think will show that his Axis blob is probably still a killer. On of the challenges is that you can't escape with the Russians because of the new rail rules.

[Kragdob]

The new Morris strategy I think will show that his Axis blob is probably still a killer. On of the challenges is that you can't escape with the Russians because of the new rail rules.

Wasn't that to help Soviets?

[richardsd]

slows the german rail advance, but Morris just uses the natural speed of ARM and MECH's - but it also hurts the soviet rail escape

time will tell, better players than I may find the solution

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Most Russian units can get adjacent to a city or rail depot within one turn after the start of Barbarossa. The exception are units in the Pripyat swamps and in the Baltic states.

I think Richardsd might have problems with the German advance in the south cutting off the retreat ways for the Russians. If the Germans get adjacent to a Russian unit then it can't retreat. This is independent of the new rail rule.

Morris is gambling on making a think spearhead storming towards the Urals and Caucasus. It crushes everything in its way. So the Russians can then run south and north to avoid the spearhead, but it won't be slowed. Maybe it can be counter attacked in the rear? I'm not sure. If Morris is not killing a lot of Russian units then they can be railed to the east and face the Germans east of Stalingrad. I think it should be possible to hold the Caucasus and places east of Stalingrad. Stavropol and Stalingrad will probably fall, but Morris won't get as far as he did against JoeRock.

Eventually the armor will outrun even the mech and then counter attacks can be considered. Losing ground in the south is less devastating than losing Moscow so all is not lost against this blob attack.

I'm sure Supermax would have seen a lot of possibilities with the Russians against the Morris blob strategy