Attrition points ......again

[Razorbacjac]

Sorry to bother you guys with this but couldn't find my answer. A BG that is already broken for a few turns that routs off the table.....do you receive two more attrition points? Two when they broke and two more when they rout of the table for a total of 4. Is that correct?

[Robert241167]

Hi there.

No it is 2 attrition points when they break and cannot exceed that number.

You have the chance to reduce that value if you can rally them before they rout of table.

Rob

[Razorbacjac]

Ok, thanks Robert. In agame it was counted as a total of 4 in the end but I was losing anyway. Thank you sir.

[Robert241167]

No worries.

The one that does cause confusion is when a fragged BG passes a test not to break but then evades off table. Some count it for 1 attrition point as fragged whilst others count 2 attrition points (1 for fragged and 1 for evading off table).

I think it will be clarified in V2.

Rob

[ravenflight]

It's been answered, but perhaps think of it like this:

A BG is worth 2 points, no matter what it is. If it's a BG of 6 Knights or a BG of 4 Light Infantry... it's worth 2 points.

When it Fragments it's worth 1 point.

When it routs OR routs off table it's worth 0 points.

Your army breaks when you have only half of your points remaining on the table.

So:

If every BG in your army is fragmented, you break.
If half of your BG's are routed, you break.
If 1 of your BG's is routed you're down 2 points, but you can get it back by rallying it back up to fragmented, then back again if you rally it back up to disrupted or better... but if it goes off table it can't be rallied... it's gonners.

This isn't exactly right, but it might help roughing the calculations.

[philqw78]

It doesn't help with the calculation for evaded off table. And, BTW, I've had it played both ways against me by Si for Fragged evading off. First time 1 point, second 2. So I like to ask the umpire before the comp starts.

[Razorbacjac]

It's been answered, but perhaps think of it like this:

A BG is worth 2 points, no matter what it is. If it's a BG of 6 Knights or a BG of 4 Light Infantry... it's worth 2 points.

When it Fragments it's worth 1 point.

When it routs OR routs off table it's worth 0 points.

Your army breaks when you have only half of your points remaining on the table.

So:

If every BG in your army is fragmented, you break.
If half of your BG's are routed, you break.
If 1 of your BG's is routed you're down 2 points, but you can get it back by rallying it back up to fragmented, then back again if you rally it back up to disrupted or better... but if it goes off table it can't be rallied... it's gonners.

This isn't exactly right, but it might help roughing the calculations.

So if a BG is Broken(2pts) and later rallied to Fragmented-one point is gained back? Is that correct? You no longer have the another against you? If so I need to know because ive been playing the game incorrectly then.

[philqw78]

Yes. If it is broken it is 2 AP lost. If you then bolster the BG it becomes fragmented and therefore only 1 AP lost. Rally the BG again and 0 AP lost. Bolstering is something IC can earn their points for.

[Razorbacjac]

Yes. If it is broken it is 2 AP lost. If you then bolster the BG it becomes fragmented and therefore only 1 AP lost. Rally the BG again and 0 AP lost. Bolstering is something IC can earn their points for.

Thanks Phil, I am writing the notes down.....I haven't played in a tournament, just locally....beginners. Been playing about 6 months now. The forum is a life saver and the people on it.

[bbotus]

There is only 1 way to read the Attrition Points table on page 37. Just remember to apply each applicable line to your BGs and add up the total. The long way is to start from scratch each phase of each turn. But everyone usually just makes a quick calculation of the net changes and adjusts the total point count. The confusing one isn't really. A BG is fragmented, counts 1 point. It later is still 'currently' fragmented (the same 1 point) and evades of the table. The evade off is a separate line and worth 1 point in and of itself. So the total is 2 points. Simple really if you break it down and don't get someone arguing because they are desperate to win or are losing. As for Si ruling differently, we'd have to call it a mental error due to fatigue or whatever--happens to all of us at one time or another.

[dave_r]

As for Si ruling differently, we'd have to call it a mental error due to fatigue or whatever--happens to all of us at one time or another.

Well, given how often he get's an umpire ruling incorrect he must be under a lot of fatigue....

[ravenflight]

So if a BG is Broken(2pts) and later rallied to Fragmented-one point is gained back? Is that correct? You no longer have the another against you? If so I need to know because ive been playing the game incorrectly then.

Phil and others have answered.

Consider it a snap shot of what is happening at any particular point in the game. If someone came along and said "right now, how many Routed/Fragmented or off table BG's have you got?" Calculate that. In 15 minutes time they come back and ask the same question. It's the question 'right now'. So, if 15 minutes ago you had 2 routing BG's, you would be 4 points towards breaking. 15 minutes later you've rallied one to fragmented, but a totally different BG is now routed... how are your points? 5 - correct? 15 minutes later you've rallied the first unit back to disrupted, you're back to 4.

Don't keep a running total (except mentally). Take a snap shot - right here, right now - how many BG's are Fragged, Routed or Off table?

Hope this helps.

Remember (I think - I'd have to check) that evaded off table count as 1 point, not 2.

[titanu]

There is only 1 way to read the Attrition Points table on page 37... A BG is fragmented, counts 1 point. It later is still 'currently' fragmented (the same 1 point) and evades of the table. The evade off is a separate line and worth 1 point in and of itself. So the total is 2 points.

Not according to RBS - we had this happen in a game against him a Burton this week end. He said it was only 1 point lost. My argument is that in most/all other places in the rules if there are two lines that should be mutually exclusive e.g. losing to lance and MF losing cav in the open, there is an indentation on the right of the table saying so. This is NOT the case in the Attrition points table. So I also say it is two points lost.

[nikgaukroger]

Richard has always ruled it as 1AP. I disagree, but he is totally consistent.

[titanu]

Richard has always ruled it as 1AP. I disagree, but he is totally consistent.

Then why not put in on the FAQs? It does not matter which way it is played so long as it is consistant.

[Robert241167]

That's a shame Bob as I remember you giving me the extra point which helped me win against you at Britcon a couple of years ago even though I argued that I shouldn't get the extra point.

Obviously I didn't argue too strongly !!

Rob

[dave_r]

Yes Rob, but RBS isn't the umpire at Britcon - Nik was

I rule it at the Northern Doubles as 2 AP.

[philqw78]

The way it is written it is 2AP. Played Terry at the weekend. And we had a discussion about it as I was just about to chase a fragged BG of his off table. He suggested we call RBS. I suggested we read the rules.

[hazelbark]

Richard has always ruled it as 1AP. I disagree, but he is totally consistent.

Then why not put in on the FAQs? It does not matter which way it is played so long as it is consistant.

Exactly. The FAQ has needed a variety of updating this among them.

[bbotus]

Richard has always ruled it as 1AP. I disagree, but he is totally consistent.

Then why not put in on the FAQs? It does not matter which way it is played so long as it is consistant.

Exactly. The FAQ has needed a variety of updating this among them.

Unbelievable. The way the rules are written, counting 1 point for a fragged BG evading off table is totally inconsistent with the way everything else in the rulebook is written.

Added comments below:

Oh, geeeeeeeeezz. I think I see what RBS is doing. The table on 37 says a BG counts 2 points if it is currently broken, routed off table, or destroyed. The 3rd line says 1 point if currently fragmented. So, apparently RBS doesn't consider a fragged BG that evades off table to be 'currently' fragged. Otherwise, he wouldn't have to say 'currently' broken or routed off table. So 'currently' only pertains to units still on table. Wow, that kind of butchers the meaning of the English language. To be consistent with how you all say he plays it, lines 2 and 3 should be combined to read: "Each BG straggling, currently fragmented, or evaded off table."

Well, until I see an FAQ, it still sounds like 2 points for a fragged BG to evade off table. (Aside to myself: Can't believe I said that)