Do Spear/Bow count as 2 ranks spear?

[mchappory]

Hi all,

I was at a convention on the weekend and was told that a mixed unit of Byzantine Skoutatoi (front rank Defensive Spear/Rear rank MF Bow) count as two ranks of spears in close combat.

I was surprised at this and can find no proof in the rules to support the idea that second ranks count as if of the same type as front ranks. Am I missing something, and where are the passages to support this idea in the rules?

Obviously this is especially important when it comes to POAs in combat.

I'd be most grateful for some clarification on this one.

Cheers, Matthew

[bbotus]

I don't have the book with the Byzantine armies so I couldn't check for any special notes.

Page 96 and 97 clearly state that spearmen must be at least 2 ranks of spears to get the + POA. So if the 2nd rank is only armed with bow, this is not the case and they do not get the + POA for 2 ranks of spears. On the other hand, you are facing spears. You do not get the + POA for capabilities such as lancer or sword or any other POA that says 'unless facing steady pike/spearmen'. Of course, that assumes they are steady which is described on page 24 as not being disrupted or fragmented. And, it is further described on page 133 (often overlooked): Disordered and severely disordered bases also do not count as steady. Note that disorder is by base not by unit for figuring POAs (page 132).

[mchappory]

Thank you, a most thorough reply which confirms my own thinking about the topic.

[stenic]

They are likely confusing the part that mentions 2nd rank stand use the same POAs as the first rank or what ever the rule is.

[philqw78]

To count as 2 ranks of spear you must have 2 ranks of spear.

The Byzantines are unusual in the lists in that they can get BG's of 8 giving a 4 deep formation with 2 complete ranks of spear and a third shooting rank.

[zoltan]

They are likely confusing the part that mentions 2nd rank stand use the same POAs as the first rank or what ever the rule is.

So to be clear, what are the POAs here:

2 ranks of HF protected offensive spear versus front rank protected offensive spear and second rank HF bow?

[gozerius]

They are likely confusing the part that mentions 2nd rank stand use the same POAs as the first rank or what ever the rule is.

So to be clear, what are the POAs here:

2 ranks of HF protected offensive spear versus front rank protected offensive spear and second rank HF bow?

The two ranks of OSp fights at +, the front rank OSp 2nd rank bow fights at -.
At impact, assuming the all OSp BG was charging, the mixed BG would also get support shooting at -.