Initiative

[goodwoodrw]

"Initiative is a complex measure of unit’s gun range, optics, manoeuvrability and
training, which indicates how much damage the unit can do before the enemy has
a chance to shoot back. The bigger your initiative advantage, the more strength
you can kill/suppress before the enemy counterattacks you, and so the less effective this
counterattack will be".

Initiative has bothered ever since i have purchased this game. Does it really do much? According to the manual the greater in the number advantage the less likely hood the a unit will take damage. Saying that a tank with a the initiative of 8 vs infantry 2 = to a ratio 4:1 a tank should win hands down, but it's not the case, I know we have had this discussion in other threads and the explanation, "random results" justifies the end. Really though having a good look at the above rule a tank with the initiative of 8 and the soft kill of 8 vs infantry of 2 and 2 shouldn't get close to damaging a tank unit very often at all, especially in the open, but they do. Can somebody point out if I'm missing something here. How big does the advantage need to be to guarantee a safe attack?

[deducter]

I'm just going to quote myself from another thread.

I'm actually not 100% clear on how initiative works, hopefully one of the devs or another knowledgeable player can verify what I'm about to say.

From the many, many hours that I've played this game and the combat logs I've examined, my sense is that for every point of initiative advantage, 20% of your units shoot first. I think this value is dependent on the current strength, so if you overstrength your high initiative units, proportionally more will shoot first (I base this guess off of the super-effectiveness of overstrengthed 88 guns).

When you attack with one unit into another, you can score either a kill or a suppression. A point of suppression for the unit with initiative advantage eliminates one of the dice rolls for the unit with the lower initiative, but suppression does not inflict strength loss. It is possible, for instance, for you to for a unit that is strength 10-9 (10 strength, 9 suppression) to retreat without inflicting any strength damage, as you can inflict suppression. This is critical for surrender/retreat mechanics, which is vital in MP/higher difficulties.

It is possible, however, through combat with an inferior unit vs a superior unit or through back luck for you to fail to inflict any points of suppression. Such a possibility is extremely unlikely, but the best example may be something like a Marder IIIH (INI 7) vs a Soviet guard (INI 2). You are guaranteed, in clear terrain, of an INI advantage of at least 3 (Marder IIIH INI = 7 vs Guards INI = 2 +2 dice roll = 4). However, the Mrader IIIH has a SA of 4, and furthermore the guards get a defense bonus of 2 for fighting a AT unit. It is quite possible that your Marder will inflict no kills or suppression on the Soviet Guards, and hence it can retaliate with all 6 of its unsuppressed strength points, and might inflict up to 6 damage back on your Marder IIIH. Such a possibility is extremely unlikely, however, as it assumes a perfect kill ratio on the guards (3 HA vs 12 GD for the Marder) and that you inflicted no kills or suppression with your Marder. It is still theoretically possible, as far as I understand the mechanics.

One other detail, only dice that kills/suppresses during your initiative advantage determine how many dice the defending unit can strike back with. In the previous example of the Marder III vs Soviet Guards, the Marder III is guaranteed 6 dice rolls on the Guards before it retaliates. To reduce the dice roll of the Guards, only kills or suppression in the first six dice roll matter. In other words, it is possible for your Marder III to score 4 kills in the last 4 dice roll, but the Guards can still retaliate with 6 strength because none of the Marder's kills were scored in the first 60% of its dice.

In other words, no amount of initiative advantage actually guarantees you to attack safely. The odds are extremely good though, if you are attacking a low initiative, low defense unit with a unit with high attack and high initiative that you take little or no damage in return. Surely you've attacked cavalry in the clear with experienced Panzer IVs and noticed how easily they almost never fire back?

The only way to guarantee safety when attacking is to completely suppress the target with artillery fire.

[Kerensky]

Initiative is extremely important in most engagement, you want a 3+ initiative difference for best results.
This thread has some information and images showing how important initiative is.
viewtopic.php?f=145&t=28892