Why are there so few ports on the map?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

When playing games I notice that there are maybe too few ports on the map.

I feel there should be ports in these areas at least:

1) Southampton in Southern Britain.

Maybe it's a good idea to place Southampton as a city on the map and place a port here.
It's located in the hex 62,26 (2xSE of Bristol). The sea port symbol can be placed
SW or SE of the Southampton city hex.

The Allies staged the invasion in Normandy from various ports along the English Channel
(Plymouth, Portsmouth, Southampton etc.) so I feel at least one English Channel port
should be on the map. Southampton is a major port.

2) Bristol in Southwestern Britain

I even think Bristol should have a port, but maybe it's hard to place the port on the map
without moving the city itself because all neighbouring hexes are land hexes.

3) Antwerp in Belgium

Antwerp is the second biggest port in Europe after Rotterdam (being indicated in the game
with the sea port symbol close to The Hague). I feel this port should be on the map
because it was the most important port of them all for the Allies to capture in 1944.
Capturing the major port of Antwerp meant that LOTS of extra supplies were shipped
into continental Europe to defeat the Germans more quickly. So Antwerp was vital to
the Allies supply. The German counter offensive in December 1944 (The Battle of the Bulge)
had as a goal to make a breakthrough in the Ardennes and get to the shore and
capture Antwerp from the Allies.

Antwerp should be located in the hex 1xNW+N of Brussels. The Sea port symbol could be
placed NW of Antwerp.

4) Oslo in Norway

I wonder why Bergen is placed on the map with a port while Oslo is not. Oslo has (and had)
a bigger port than Bergen and the Oslo port was used a lot by the Germans to ship supplies
into Norway. The ports in Bergen and Trondheim were more important for the German
submarines because they had short access to the North Sea and Norwegian Sea.

I live in Oslo and know that the port there is quite substantial. Definitely bigger than the
port in Bergen.

In CeaW it's quite cumbersome when you invade Norway. You invade near Oslo because
Norway surrenders after Oslo has been captured. But those units near Oslo can't be shipped
back to Germany and must move the hard way into the mountains to Bergen to be shipped
home. That doesn't seem right. They could easily be shipped from Oslo to Germany.

If you have to choose between having a port in Oslo and Bergen I would prefer to have it in
Oslo. But having both cities with ports is maybe the best. It gives the Allies a better chance
to counter invade into Norway later because Germany has to protect both Oslo and Bergen.

5) Stettin in Germany

Stettin was one of the biggest ports in the Baltic Sea and should maybe be on the map.
It's located in the hex 88,21 (1xNE+1xN of Berlin). The sea port symbol should be just
north of the Stettin hex.

6) Izmir in Turkey

Izmir is Turkey's second largest port after Istanbul.

It's located in the hex 104, 52 and the sea symbol could be N of this hex.

[Happycat]

Stauffenberg, I second this motion. It's truly annoying after taking Oslo to have to send your Axis corps on a mountain hike. In addition to wasting time, it exposes them to the possibility of British or French naval interference.

I agree with all of your port suggestions. Others who agree, please keep "bumping" this thread to keep it near the top. Maybe the developer will take note. (yes, I know, it could be "modded" but I don't do that---waiting for the editor).

[Happycat]

Stauffenberg, I second this motion. It's truly annoying after taking Oslo to have to send your Axis corps on a mountain hike. In addition to wasting time, it exposes them to the possibility of British or French naval interference.

I agree with all of your port suggestions. Others who agree, please keep "bumping" this thread to keep it near the top. Maybe the developer will take note. (yes, I know, it could be "modded" but I don't do that---waiting for the editor).

[firepowerjohan]

There are a number of reasons, but this is noted down for future patches especially if alot of ppl want it. Number of Cities and Ports has to do with game balance as well. Ports have to be attached to a Resources since the owner of the Resource will own the Port. Norway issue is that with a port there, Axis would be blocked from landing and attacking Oslo directly since we do not allow movement after landing.

[Happycat]

There are a number of reasons, but this is noted down for future patches especially if alot of ppl want it. Number of Cities and Ports has to do with game balance as well. Ports have to be attached to a Resources since the owner of the Resource will own the Port. Norway issue is that with a port there, Axis would be blocked from landing and attacking Oslo directly since we do not allow movement after landing.

Hey FPJ---you're up early, depending upon your time zone. Nice to hear from the dev so quickly.

I presumed that there were some balance reasons behind the limited number of ports. However, I think that the cities Stauffenberg lists make good sense. In the case of the UK, it should NOT be easy for the Axis to get ashore anyway, so extra ports wouldn't hurt imo. For Oslo, I don't think time is of essence, so if it takes an extra turn to take Norway, so what? Axis can always start earlier. It only takes two corps plus air and naval support to take it efficiently. Axis can spare these resources at any time. Problem, imo would be that with a port at Oslo, Axis BB could not bombard Oslo, since can't enter enemy port. Maybe there is a way around this?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

I have now made a modified map and added several ports and cities without altering the income for each major power. So it shouldn't alter
game balance. I'm playtesting it now and will release it for the community when I'm happy with it.

This is what I did:
Britain:
1) Added a city of Southampton with a port in the centre of the English channel
2) Added a port to Bristol
3) Added a city called Leeds a little east and north of Liverpool (inland)
4) Added Jerusalem in Palestine
5) Reduced the PP values of Birmingham and Cairo to account for Southampton, Leeds and Jerusalem
6) Added some garrison units (Jerusalem, Bristol etc.)
7) Moved the motorized corps from Bristol to Southampton so it can be shipped faster to France

France:
1) Added the city of Lille close to the Belgian border
2) Added the city of Vichy
3) Moved Lyons 2 hexes east because it was located in the wrong hex
4) Added the city of Nancy close to the Maginot hexes. I tried to add Strasbourg, but this city is
along the border and contains a fortress. But it's not possible to have both a city and a fortress
in a hex. Making the fortress permanent is necessary to prevent the city from disappearing when
Germany captures France, but that is not consistant with the real situation.
5) Added the city of Oran with a port in Algiers
6) Added a port to Cherbourg so it's easier for the British to evacuate the BEF when France is
about to fall. It also makes Cherbourg more important when the Allies invade (Overlord)
7) Reduced PP values for Lyons, Marseilles etc. to account for the new cities.
8 ) Made hex north of Brest a clear hex

Belgium:
1) Added the city of Antwerp with a port. This city was crucial to the Allies after Overlord and
became the biggest port for supplying the Allied troops. It's the second largest port in Europe
after Rotterdam.
2) Reduced the value for Brussels to account for the new Antwerp
3) Moved one corps to Antwerp

Portugal:
1) Added the city of Porto with a port
2) Reduced PP value of Lisbon
3) Added a garrison in Porto

Spain:
1) Added several new cities (Seville, Zaragoza and Valencia with a port)
2) Reduced values of Madrid and Barcelona
3) Added garrisons in the new cities
4) Spain was too easy to conquer when I first tried it. Now it has more units and cities to
protect itself.

Turkey:
1) Added several new cities (Izmir with a port, Adana, Konya, Bursa, Samsun with a port)
2) Reduced the values of Istanbul and Ankara
3) Added new garrisons in several cities. Like Spain I felt Turkey was too easy to conquer,
but with more cities and units a German invasion needs to be more dedicated and it will
definitely postpone Barbarossa from 1941 to 1942. That's fine because taking Turkey is
no walkover

Sweden:
1) Added the city of Gothenburg with a port. Gothenburg has a major port
2) Reduced the PP value of Stockholm
3) Added a garrison in Sweden

Finland:
1) Added the city of Tampere
2) Reduced the PP value of Helsinki
3) Added a garrison in Tampere

Eastern Poland:
1) Added cities of Vilna and Lvov (Lvov is already on the border)
2) Reduced cities in USSR to account for these new cities (they're already on the Russian side
of the border)


Western Poland:
1) Added the port Gdynia to Danzig. Gdynia was a big port and quite important in WW2

Russia:
1) Added several cities (Tbilisi south of the Caucasus, Tula south of Moscow, Yaroslav
north east of Moscow, Tambov east of Voronezh, Kirov south east of Kotlas).
2) Rearranged the cities that were supposed to be in the Urals (renamed Perm to Molotov,
added a city called Sverdlovsk south east of Molotov and made it the capital, added cities
of Chelyabinsk and Magnitogorsk, renamed the mines to Urals and Siberia).
The problem of this area is that all of these cities should be further east, but the map can't
be extended so they have to be compressed. I feel it's better to have more cities there and
make sure the other capital is as eastwards as possible. Then it won't fall so easily as it
can now.
3) Reduced the PP values of several exisiting cities to account for the new cities
4) Renamed Rzhev to Kalinin (Rzhev was quite small and the location of the city in the
game is closer to the bigger city of Kalinin)
5) Added a few garrisons to some of the new cities (like a garrison in Tbilisi)

Italy:
1) Added some new cities (Florence, Naples with a port, Benghazi in Libya with a port)
2) Reduced the PP values of some existing cities
3) Added garrisons in Naples and Benghazi

Germany:
1) Added several cities (Hannover, Stuttgart, Leipzig, Stettin with a port)
2) Reduced the PP values of several cities to account for the new cities
3) Added garrisons in several cities
4) Added a destroyer unit in Stettin. I feel only having 1 battleship for Germany is too little.
Giving them 2 battleships is maybe too much. So I felt adding a destroyer unit is ok. This new
unit is good to have to protect the landing forces to Norway. Especially with the changes I
made to Norway (read below)

USA and Canada:
I noticed the map here shows less of these countries than the cities say. E. g. Ottawa is really
located much further to the west and south than on the map. I tried to put the capital city of Quebec
just north of the river in Canada and remove the existing capital. But this caused the game to
hang when changing from Axis to Allied player. So I had to leave it where it was and therefore
I didn't change the name either.

The hex called Washington in the game is much closer to New York. It's placed on Long Island. So
I tried to move this capital 1 hex to the south and rename it New York. Then I added a port there.
I renamed the old New York to New Haven because the city hex there is much closer to New Haven.
Then I tried to run the game and noticed it hung between the Axis and Allied turns. So I had to
leave this area as is.

I think the problem occurs because the convoys appear along these coast lines. So the hexes
where the convoys may appear must be empty or the game can't place the new convoys and will
hang. So I therefore understood I have to live with these map inconsistencies because it's too risky
to try to alter them and hope the game won't hang.

Norway:
1) Added a port in Oslo
2) Extended the Norwegian border south east of Oslo 1 hex further south. This was necessary to
make it possible for Germany to invade Oslo both from the east and west.

The port in Oslo makes it impossible to invade units directly adjacent to Oslo and bombard the
city with a battleship. That is fine because the Oslo fjord coastal battery of Oscarsborg was a
major obstacle for the German warships.

I've playtested the invasion of Norway and it's not very difficult to achieve German victory as
long as you dedicate enough forces for the task. This is what I recommend for an invasion.
a) Load 2-3 corps units on German transports.
b) Move your entire luftwaffe force (1x tac bomber, 2x fighter) to northern Denmark so they
are within range of Oslo
c) Sail your invasion force to the sea areas south of Oslo. This will make it possible to invade
these hexes 1xSE+1xS and 1xSW+1xS of Oslo)
d) Sail your warships close to the transports to protect them
e) Declare war upon Norway
f) Land 2 of your land units 2 hexes away from Oslo (one to the east and one to the west)
g) The third transport unit (if you want to use so many) moves to the western invasion shore
h) Your air units bombard Oslo and hopefully make some hits
i) Britain rebuilds losses in Oslo, but the Norwegian unit is less effective than before
j) Next turn you start by bombarding Oslo again with 3 air units
k) Move your eastern corps north and attack Oslo
l) Move your western corps north and attack Oslo
m) land your last corps at the western invasion beach. This unit can be a backup if Oslo
doesn't fall this turn. Then you need to move your western corps one hex further to the north
and attack again to give room for the backup unit to attack Oslo too

If you want to make invasion of Oslo even easier you can build a tac bomber early as the
German player and use it instead of a fighter to bombard Oslo. Then the fighter can protect
Ruhr from strategic bombardment. But I usually spend my German income the first months
for research labs and replacing losses.

So it usually takes 2 turns to capture Norway (3 turns at the worst). That is not so bad.
Especially since German has some spare time before they start attacking Holland and then
Belgium. The key is to invade Denmark early so the air units can use northern Denmark
as bases. I always attack Denmark on turn 2 with 2 land units (railed from Munich and
Prague) to the Kiel area and use the battleship and northern fighter to bombard Copenhagen.
I German unit near the port of Kiel can load and unload on the Danish hex south of Copenhagen
to attack the same turn. So you should be able to get 2 land units to attack Copenhagen at
the same turn.

[Happycat]

Stauffenberg, sounds good!

[Caswellon]

Your mod sounds exciting. Looking forward to playing. Did you use the Beta Editor to do this, or some other method?

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Your mod sounds exciting. Looking forward to playing. Did you use the Beta Editor to do this, or some other method?

Yes, I used the Beta Editor. I'm beta testing it so why not make something useful when beta testing.

I'm beta testing the modified 1939 scenario and map and it's going fine so far. I'm in June 1940 I've conquered Poland, Denmark, Norway, Holland, Belgium so far. The Germans have broken through the French defense lines and will take Paris in maybe 2-3 turns.

Norway fell pretty easily despite the modified map having a port blocking direct access to Oslo. So far the mod looks good, but the real test will come when I start the Barbarossa invasion and the conflict in Libya/Egypt starts.

[gmothes]

I would also like to see ports on Corsica, Sardinia, and Cypress. Just my $.02...

[gmothes]

Crete as well...

[firepowerjohan]

A good rule is that Air units can move into enemy unsupplied hexes. So you can actually land with air on Corsica, Sardinia and Crete without having to get stranded ground units there.

[vypuero]

Really is no need for ports as they have little value and you can use them as air bases as it stands.

[Happycat]

Anyone who wishes to play-test Stauffenberg's map may do so by following this link:

http://rapidshare.com/files/44567863/Modified_map.zip

The instructions are as follows:

1) Download the file Modified map.zip
2) Put it on your hard disk and extract it
3) Backup all files you have in the following folder:
C:\Program Files\Slitherine\Commander - Europe at War\data\scenario
4) Backup the file ww2_city_eng.txt from the following folder:
C:\Program Files\Slitherine\Commander - Europe at War\data
5) Copy all files I modified except the ww2_city_eng.txt from the extracted folder from
point 2 above to the following folder:
C:\Program Files\Slitherine\Commander - Europe at War\data\scenario
6) Copy the modified file ww2_city_eng.txt from the extracted folder from point 2 above
to the following folder:
C:\Program Files\Slitherine\Commander - Europe at War\data
7. Start the game and load the 1939 scenario

Note that it is VITAL to backup as outlined in steps 3 and 4. If you are playing a PBEM, you will want to be able to switch back to the "vanilla" files for that purpose (your opponent may be very annoyed to find that you suddenly have switched maps).

Another important thing to note is that only the 1939 scenario has been altered. However, the other scenario maps are included with the modified files, because the mod of the 1939 scenario won't run without them.

This is a work in progress, that Stauffenberg has agreed to share with those who are interested. Feedback is welcome, but keep it constructive, and keep it KIND please.

Stauffenberg, if I have missed anything, jump in here anytime please. And thank you for sharing this.

NOTE---there is now a thread "Playtest Stauffenberg's Map"---please post feedback there.

[SMK-at-work]

If you've added a port to Bristol then there's no need to move the mech corps!!

I think the game needs 2 levels of port - 1 for the large naval dockyards that can repair and build ships, one for ports lacking such dockyards but where troops can embark from in significant numbers (eg Dunkirk!! ) and which provide supply even if not associated with a city.......as long as they aren't blockaded somehow......

All for v1.03 of course...

[Peter Stauffenberg]

If you've added a port to Bristol then there's no need to move the mech corps!!

I think the game needs 2 levels of port - 1 for the large naval dockyards that can repair and build ships, one for ports lacking such dockyards but where troops can embark from in significant numbers (eg Dunkirk!! ) and which provide supply even if not associated with a city.......as long as they aren't blockaded somehow......

All for v1.03 of course...

If the motorized corps is located in Bristol it needs 2 turns to reach the French coast near the Belgian border. If the motorized corps is located in Southampton it can get there in just 1 turn. That means it's ashore where it's needed 1 turn faster. If you want the motorized corps from Bristol in France after just 1 turn then it must unload near Cherbourg and move to the border hex. It takes time and burns oil. So it's definitely better to start the motorized unit in Southampton.

I think the game is working pretty well as is regarding ports. If they only add evacuation rules to the existing rules then you can do whatever you want. With evacuation rules I mean you can evacuate a land unit from any coastal hex (It doesn't need to be adjacent to a port), but the unit will lose some strength when evacuating (e. g. 1-3 for garrison and corps, 1-5 for motorized and 1-7 for armor). You also need to pay 4 PPs to get on a transport.

With the evacuation rule change you don't need to have those smaller ports. The ports on the map today are the major ports needed for supply purposes etc. Since you can embark in any coastal hex you don't need a port for that. So you only want more ports if you want to disembark units. The evacuation rule simulates that. E. g. the British evacuating from Dunkirk instead of moving to Cherbourg to disembark the normal way. It's only natural you lose some steps (especially for armor units) because you need to leave your heavy equipment behind and the evacuation is often rushed.

[Happycat]

OK, I have play-tested Stauffenberg's map up to June of 1940---Axis AI with limited help for the AI. Things have proceeded as per usual---Poland fell in 4 turns, Axis invaded Lows in November, and as yet still has not taken Paris.

So far, nothing has occurred which would not have likely occurred using the "vanilla" map. That, I think, is a good thing. The balance does not seem to be affected, and I have to say that having the extra ports and cities makes the game, to me, more enjoyable. It does give the Royal Navy more strategic flexibliity, but so what? The UK was at that time a formidable naval power.

More to come as I play this out.