Later Medieval Danish - Mixed levy with Xbows vs. Unmixed

[dugroz]

Hi Guys,

Looking at Storm of Arrows page 66, Later Medieval Danish.

I'm pretty new to FoG in terms of strategy. What are the pros and cons of mixing your HF with MF crossbows? I've only played 1 game with the mixed BG, and in that game the crossbows contributed nothing.

I was using a BG of 6 total, 3 bases of HF in the 1st row, 3 bases of crossbow in the 2nd row.

In shooting, they only got one die, which rarely hits, and which is rarely enough to cause a CT even if it hits, and never enough for a death roll (unless combined with other shooting).

In impact, they are at -1 POA, and that kind of feels like a 1 hit wonder, that fails more often than not, statistically. It's not like they get charged over-and-over again...

Please, someone tell me what I'm missing. Or, if I'm not missing something, tell me the obvious (ie, don't use them!)

[Robert241167]

Hi dugroz

I'm at work so can't be certain of this......................don't the 3 bases of crossbow fire as if in the front rank so at short range they would still get 3 dice?

Rob

[philqw78]

You must be missing something as they are the first shooting rank so at effective range shoot 3 dice, only 1 at long range

They get more dice than troops without a shooting rear rank so are far better in impact than just HW in the front rank. They could also disrupt the enemy, and these guys should be facing heavily armoured knights, so get 2 decent shooting chances. Shooting rarely takes bases off knights. Its cheaper than all HW.

The down side, if they lose a base.

[dugroz]

Well, I guess I did miss something.

I had been reading it as "first [overall] rank" gets 1 die per base, 2nd is reduced, etc.

But now I see that it is "first SHOOTING rank" - happy day!

Still, I wonder if any of you have had experience with the mixed vs. unmixed formation, what your opinions are?

[Polkovnik]

The main weakness of Heavy Weapons is vs mounted Lancers at impact, most often knights. The rear rank of crossbow provides support shooting, which means it is an even combat when charged by knights (each file has three dice needing 5s vs 2 dice needing 4s). As well asshooting the knights on the way in, that is.
They fight as well as BGs of just heavy weapon unitl they lose a base, and then fight just as well against many opponents (all but better armoured or steady pike / spear I think).
So they are the same points as pure Heavy Weapon BGs, they get to shoot and get support shooting at impact, and are sometimes slightly worse in melee.
Overall they are very good troops for the points IMO and better than pure HW BGs.

[Polkovnik]

Its cheaper than all HW.

No, they're the same points. They are Crossbow, Swordsmen.

The down side, if they lose a base.

Not too much downside because they are Armoured Swordsmen, so still pretty good in melee against many opponents.

[philqw78]

Its cheaper than all HW.

No, they're the same points. They are Crossbow, Swordsmen.

The down side, if they lose a base.

Not too much downside because they are Armoured Swordsmen, so still pretty good in melee against many opponents.

Its all chinese to me Or persian

[ravenflight]

Hi Guys,

Looking at Storm of Arrows page 66, Later Medieval Danish.

I'm pretty new to FoG in terms of strategy. What are the pros and cons of mixing your HF with MF crossbows? I've only played 1 game with the mixed BG, and in that game the crossbows contributed nothing.

I was using a BG of 6 total, 3 bases of HF in the 1st row, 3 bases of crossbow in the 2nd row.

In shooting, they only got one die, which rarely hits, and which is rarely enough to cause a CT even if it hits, and never enough for a death roll (unless combined with other shooting).

In impact, they are at -1 POA, and that kind of feels like a 1 hit wonder, that fails more often than not, statistically. It's not like they get charged over-and-over again...

Please, someone tell me what I'm missing. Or, if I'm not missing something, tell me the obvious (ie, don't use them!)

Nearly all bases have been covered by the others in the forum.

I really like this list, and considered making it... and still may.

Under V2 I believe they will be even better.

I think that the chances of any crossbow hitting foot on the way in and/or impact is negligible, but it's still there... and in essence it's free. On impact you're only hitting on a 6, but hell, the second rank of an all halberdier unit isn't hitting AT ALL!

I think Armoured Halberdiers are tough enough to go into the woods and flush out anyone hiding in there. They're going to lose 1:3 of their dice, but they are still armoured (generally a +POA vs anything in the woods) and HW (generally a +POA vs anything in the woods) so are probably going to be at least a +POA.

You're not going to like Romans that much as your halberd wont count so you'll be a -POA in both impact AND melee (yuck), but that's what your knights are for.

My suggestion - build it. See how it goes. If it goes crap let me know so I don't waste my money too

[stenic]

What's not to like? 3 extra dice at impact albeit at -1poa really helps. And if you've timed it right you've already shot up the enemy as they come at you, twice vs knights and thrice vs foot, so there is a good chance any one coming at you is already down a level.

One of our group uses them lots, we try to avoid fighting those units as it's a lottery even before you get to grips with them!

[dugroz]

They fight as well as BGs of just heavy weapon unitl they lose a base, and then fight just as well against many opponents (all but better armoured or steady pike / spear I think).

Clarification needed for myself -- what you're saying is, in melee the first two rows fight using the POA's of the first row, in this case, the HW guys. -- then, after losing a "front row" base, one of the MF Xbow bases would step forward and use it's own POA's for that file.

Is that correct? (basic question, I know, but just want to be confident). thanks.

[Robert241167]

That is correct dugroz.

Rob

[philqw78]

I have Chinese and Persians with mixed BG. It doesn't make a difference for the Persians when a front base dies as they are the same armour and haven't figured out melee weapons yet. For the chinese it can be a disaster. A Protected HW base dies to be replaced by a protected bow Nothing base. From evens to double minus.

I think mixed units can be very useful if you get them in the right places. The art is keeping them away from thing like pikes and legionaries. Though that would not be quite as bad for the Danish.

[grahambriggs]

The Danish mixed units are good - though perhaps I'd prefer all crossbow/sword armoured.

The difficulty isn't with the troop type though, it's that the army as a whole isn't that great.

[philqw78]

The Danish mixed units are good - though perhaps I'd prefer all crossbow/sword armoured.

I'd prefer armoured impact foot heavy weapon longbow. But thats not going to happen either.

[Polkovnik]

The Danish mixed units are good - though perhaps I'd prefer all crossbow/sword armoured.

I'd prefer armoured impact foot heavy weapon longbow. But thats not going to happen either.

I dunno, I think someone proposed that for Elves on the FOG Swords & Sorcery forum. Superior or Elite as well I think.

[philqw78]

I dunno, I think someone proposed that for Elves on the FOG Swords & Sorcery forum. Superior or Elite as well I think.

Surely they wouldn't have accepted that grading without real evidence?

[dugroz]

Thanks, everyone, for the verification.

The difficulty isn't with the troop type though, it's that the army as a whole isn't that great.

grahambriggs (and others): can you expand on that statement? I guess I'd like to know if there is a glaring weakness in the Danish army before I commit to making them my "main" army.

I've mainly just based my choice on what models I have and what sounds fun, I wanted a northern/western European army that can have multiple units of heavy knights and decent infantry. I don't love the fact that the only light foot available is handgunners, and no light horse, but I'm not a hit-and-run type player anyway.

Am I setting myself up for constant disaster?

[babyshark]

The lack of light horse--or other good skirmishers--is a weakness for a tournament army because it makes it harder for you to control the tempo (or redeploy when the weaknesses of your initial plan become agonizingly apparent shortly after the game starts).

That being said, I don't think it is a bad army, but it is not a top-tier tournament army. I experimented with it early on, for much the same reasons that you are looking at it. It did not end up fitting my playing style, or I could not design a list that worked for me, or both. A lot of the figures would be reasonably morphable to other armies, so you can get it and use it as the base of your next, better idea.

Marc

[Fluffy]

I've mainly just based my choice on what models I have and what sounds fun, I wanted a northern/western European army that can have multiple units of heavy knights and decent infantry. I don't love the fact that the only light foot available is handgunners, and no light horse, but I'm not a hit-and-run type player anyway.

Sounds like Later Medieval German (no mixed units, but HW and spear), 2 BG of Hungarians are a big reason why I use it as my "standard" medieval army.

[ravenflight]

Thanks, everyone, for the verification.

The difficulty isn't with the troop type though, it's that the army as a whole isn't that great.

grahambriggs (and others): can you expand on that statement? I guess I'd like to know if there is a glaring weakness in the Danish army before I commit to making them my "main" army.

I've mainly just based my choice on what models I have and what sounds fun, I wanted a northern/western European army that can have multiple units of heavy knights and decent infantry. I don't love the fact that the only light foot available is handgunners, and no light horse, but I'm not a hit-and-run type player anyway.

Am I setting myself up for constant disaster?

Look, I'm in the top third of the players rankings and I got to that position using Vinkings and Post Viking Medieval Danes.

You're not going to have a disaster of an army, it's going to be tough to beat, but you're not going to kick arse and take names either.

You'll do better against pesky shooty armies as occasionally you'll luck out and destroy those skirmishers.

If you've already got most of the minis what do you have to lose?