Swedish Foote counting as armoured at long range - why?

[madaxeman]

Any of the rules johnnies able to enlighten me on the logic behind this ?

Do they really need the "armoured" advantage?

- They already can shoot equally well as normal Pike & Shotte (1 in 2 bases shoot) at long range - or sometimes better with the Batallion gun added in
- By starting off as a 7 they take less tests so are tougher anyway

By dint of counting as "armoured" as well as all this stuff, there is an actual/technical disincentive for Swedish foote to close to close range or to combat as they can effectively outshoot normal Pike and Shotte at long range.

(this came up this weekend in a game where Lance sat his Swedish brigades in enclosed fields and dared me to come and get him out. As I was shooting him on 6's (armoured, cover) and he would shoot back at 4's it seemed there was an actual disincentive for the Swedes to attack with their foote. It also meant he had a SAwedish army where the Foote were filler/terrain holders and the mounted and the horde of commanded shotte did all the dirty work)

(on a similar theme, is the "commanded shotte with batallion" gun just a bit too tasty? I know they are brittle, but .... is there a new Renaissance Dom Rom Swarm ('RDRS Swedish') army of massed Commanded Shotte and Guns lurking out there...?)

[Scrumpy]

Obviously without this help the poor Swedes wouldn't last 2 bounds lol

[hazelbark]

By dint of counting as "armoured" as well as all this stuff, there is an actual/technical disincentive for Swedish foote to close to close range or to combat as they can effectively outshoot normal Pike and Shotte at long range.

(this came up this weekend in a game where Lance sat his Swedish brigades in enclosed fields and dared me to come and get him out.

(on a similar theme, is the "commanded shotte with batallion" gun just a bit too tasty? I know they are brittle, but

Well if he sits in an enclosed field that renders him kind of stationary. I gather you could work onto his flanks with superior numbers?

The commanded shot is a bit much I agree, but it is also a lot of BGs in one area if they aren't heavily supported. I have found that usually they win in their sector or they lose everything in their sector. They also are not very mobile and you can shift more to take them on, or shift away from them. There probably should have been a ratio of some kind linked to swedish brigades or something. I suspect (but don't really know) there was unlikely a battle that had minimum foot birgades but maximum commanded shot.

Just bring the 8 base foot archers with regimental gun and light spear up to face them

Now I must admit the Gustavus is the one army I don't have, but i think i would if i played 25mm.

[johngl]

They need to be rewarded for the effort of painting up all those extra guns and crews...

[daveallen]

He really put the best and most expensive attacking foot he could get into a field and let you ignore them?

Why wasn't he that considerate when I played him?

I can only assume a certain Carthaginian general told him of your reputation for self-imolation and so he knew you'd try to winkle him out.

The massed Commanded Foot with RGs look good on paper, but I suspect they are exceptionally fragile. If you keep them together, it's a lot of tests if one goes down. If they operate separately they can easily be swamped by shooting dice.

Check with Dave Parrish, I think he tried them at Warfare.

Dave

[nikgaukroger]

Any of the rules johnnies able to enlighten me on the logic behind this ?

Because of the way they formed up - look at the Swedish brigade's formation in real life, it is leading with pikemen. Gustavus was very keen on his pikemen being properly armoured, they were a vital part of his tactics.

IMO there is plenty incentive for the brigades to get stuck in as their advantages there are more than if they stand off and shoot. In the case you mention I suspect you were being suckered.

On the commanded shot, we are keeping an eye on that one.

[grahambriggs]

He really put the best and most expensive attacking foot he could get into a field and let you ignore them?

Why wasn't he that considerate when I played him?

I can only assume a certain Carthaginian general told him of your reputation for self-imolation and so he knew you'd try to winkle him out.

The massed Commanded Foot with RGs look good on paper, but I suspect they are exceptionally fragile. If you keep them together, it's a lot of tests if one goes down. If they operate separately they can easily be swamped by shooting dice.

Check with Dave Parrish, I think he tried them at Warfare.

Dave

Dave P and I did a practice game for this where his massed commanded foot and little guns got faced off by artillery and a BG of pike and arquebus coming in at an angle.

Dave's unitss of foot took plenty of tests and death rolls on the way in (the pike and shot unit stretched his line a bit). As it happened they lost no bases (that +1 for tininess) and a Great Commander kept rallying them. Nevertheless , we felt that had one run the increased pressure on the rest would probably have done for them. As it was they fought me to a standstill.

[petedalby]

In my extremely limited experience, Commanded Shot with RG can be glass hammers - when they're good, they're very, very good but they can be vulnerable to cohesion tests and being just 2 bases are always dodgy on death rolls, particularly if they get isolated.

I suspect their effectiveness in 25mm is increased. I think there's another thread on a similar theme of the uber Swedes in 25mm.

[Maniakes]

Dave P here. They were indeed glass hammers at Warfare. Particularly vulnerable to massed artillery as Alistair proved to me in the first game. It's not the morale that gets them (especially with a GC) it's the casualties. Sooner or later you take two hits and roll a one and the unit is gone. Mostly they seemed a great way to concentrate enough BGs in a small area that your opponent could conveniently break your whole army in one place without having to raise a sweat running round the board. Misleadingly they were much better in practice games where once or twice the massed firepower paid big dividends. One success at Warfare was that they were handy for getting on all sides of Steve's Swiss Keils - and due to that I actually took down a Swiss Keil in combat, which takes some doing!

[donm]

When I played the same army at the weekend I did manage to kill two of the four commanded shot units quite easily.

However the one that would break the army, held on, despite me getting three hits on it in melee several times.

They do seem very good as assault troops against other infantry.

I do think 700 points is way way too many for 25mm competitions on 6' x 4' tables.

Will be interesting to see how the Farnborough Bash goes with 500 points.

Don

[madaxeman]

Any of the rules johnnies able to enlighten me on the logic behind this ?

Because of the way they formed up - look at the Swedish brigade's formation in real life, it is leading with pikemen. Gustavus was very keen on his pikemen being properly armoured, they were a vital part of his tactics..

I though this was a top-down ruleset.... The "swedish mixed foote formation count as armoured at long range" is also a Swedish-specific rule isn't it? I dont think it applies to normal Pike & Shotte...

IMO there is plenty incentive for the brigades to get stuck in as their advantages there are more than if they stand off and shoot. In the case you mention I suspect you were being suckered.

At the time I was losing the mounted battle very efficiently I agree, however it was still a quite deliberate tactic from Lance to stand off with his foote and force me to attack either his defensive mounted formation or his incredibly defensive foote formation.

Even with my own little guns my units were shooting with equal numbers of dice at worse factors than the Swedes at long range - so no incentive at all for him to attack swiftly in a Go-pa kinda way..

[rbodleyscott]

Any of the rules johnnies able to enlighten me on the logic behind this ?

Because of the way they formed up - look at the Swedish brigade's formation in real life, it is leading with pikemen. Gustavus was very keen on his pikemen being properly armoured, they were a vital part of his tactics..

I though this was a top-down ruleset.... The "swedish mixed foote formation count as armoured at long range" is also a Swedish-specific rule isn't it? I dont think it applies to normal Pike & Shotte...

It is supposed to be period flavour.

Whether the balance is right remains to be seen, but we have not seen Swedish armies doing that well in tournaments despite their apparent invincibilty.

[nikgaukroger]

Because of the way they formed up - look at the Swedish brigade's formation in real life, it is leading with pikemen. Gustavus was very keen on his pikemen being properly armoured, they were a vital part of his tactics..

I though this was a top-down ruleset.... The "swedish mixed foote formation count as armoured at long range" is also a Swedish-specific rule isn't it? I dont think it applies to normal Pike & Shotte...

It is supposed to be period flavour.

Quite so. You have to balance a strict top down approach with what will appeal, and having distinct period flavour was an aim of FoG:R.

[nikgaukroger]

At the time I was losing the mounted battle very efficiently I agree, however it was still a quite deliberate tactic from Lance to stand off with his foote and force me to attack either his defensive mounted formation or his incredibly defensive foote formation.

Yup, you fell for it again.

Even with my own little guns my units were shooting with equal numbers of dice at worse factors than the Swedes at long range - so no incentive at all for him to attack swiftly in a Go-pa kinda way..

The Swedish doctrine was flexible enough to include not just charging straight in - this is historical, you screwed up. BTW is Go-Pa a Swedish variant of an oriental game

[timmy1]

Tim

My track record at Britcon, and Richard's this year (and he is a much better player than I) suggests that this army is not a killer. It needs a good general to beat it with loads of well protected artilley to shoot either the brigades or the mounted and enough good quality mounted to prize open the flanks... indeed exactly like your plan against me (well almost...)

[shadowdragon]

however it was still a quite deliberate tactic from Lance to stand off with his foote and force me to attack either his defensive mounted formation or his incredibly defensive foote formation.

I'm curious. Just how did he "force" you "to attack"?

[deadtorius]

Obviously the Swedes were superior at making mocking taunts at their less articulate opponents, who embarrassed by their lack of witty comebacks decided their only option was to shut the mouths of those offensive Swedes by filling them with lead muzzles, unfortunately it appears the muzzles did not work.
My own experience with Swedes has been particularly bloody as my early Tercio, 12 bases, had to stand and face the dreaded Swedish charge while the rest of my army took apart the German Protestants on the other side of the board. I got hit by 2 units of Swedes and for two turns lost two bases each turn. Blathergut still prefers to charge in instead of trying to shoot me down with them. I normally try to stand back and shoot them up. Artillery was in one of its less useful modes in that game couldn't even hit his stupid mounted with it....

[bahdahbum]

For info we had a FOGR tournament last WE ( IWC2012 and still no british team ) , one swedish army ended 1st another 6th ( 8 players ...) .

I used 2 superior commanded shots with regimental gun . they were very efficient but it took great care not to put them where ennemy guns could concentrate on them ! they are very brittle ! strongh but brittle . there is a kind of balance in it .