Long range canons.

[SAVOIE73]

Hi all,

I just wanted to share something I implemented on Panzer General 1.
I alwas considered that long barreled canons of mid / late war panzers and allied tanks were not only stronger, but also able to hit at a much longer range.
For that reasons I used to set all units such as Tigers, Sherman firefly, 88 Pak's, Panther, T34 / 85 etc... with a fire range of 2 instead of 1.

Thing is that I noted that Panzer General AI adopted an interesting behaviour and game remained fairly balanced regardless scenario.

things became more "in line" with what was observed / reported at that time.

What is your feeling about that suggestion ?
Do you know how could I re-implement that in panzer corps ?

[HBalck]

With original PC engine this idea don't run ! We need the same feature like in Peoples General - tanks with 2 or more can fire back.
The only possible thing yet, is that you set all units to 1 or 2 - than all units can only attack and the defender can not attack back.
I think I will give this variant a test for my Modern War Corps.

H.Balck

[Kerensky]

This is emulated pretty well by the initiative system, as you can see here. In the open high initiative Germans get the first shot and cripple their opponents. In close terrain where initiative is capped, it's a while different ball game.

In the open, it's a massacre.





In close terrain, it's a whole different game.






At this point if you really want to see 2 or more range direct fire units, your best bet is to check out the modding forum and see what they've come up with. Something like this might be officially supported somewhere down the line, but we make no promises of that.

[SAVOIE73]

Got your point regarding initiative.
Never thought from that point of view.

Things are ok then.

[macattack]

Never did like People's General for that very reason.

Too many units with ranged attack capabilities.

[SAVOIE73]

Fact is that when a 7.5cm StuK 40 L48 can engage a target at 2000 m with a 65 mm steel penetration.
a 75 L 24 could deal with same at 1000 m only with a 35mm steel penetration.

In Panzer General 1, I updated Range ability for that reason.

[El_Condoro]

The L48 would have the higher initiative and in most cases would deal damage before the L24 would be able to deal any damage in return. It's like the longer range guns deal damage as the shorter range guns are getting into range. It's not exact but it's a good approximation. PG2 had 2-range guns and it was a huge advantage, too much many believe. Given the bigger scale of PzC hexes one hex is probably better.

[SAVOIE73]

You got the point.
Considering maps scale, 2 Hexes range is not so appropriate because it suggest that Tanks Gun could deal targets at distances similar to those of light artillery range !
Definitely, initiative calculation makes sense.

[Tima]

One benefit of double hex range for certain armoured units is that the AI and player can avoid the over crowding that sometimes goes on around choking points such as cities along major rivers etc which especially the computer AI engages in to its tactical detriment. I think units such as the German 88's AT/AA should have double hex fire abilities in AT mode. Or Tanks with the same calibre such as the Tiger. Historically, such as the case of a Tiger tank hitting and damaging a allied destroyer off the shore of Italy would give credence to a double hex tank capability.

On a similar train of thought, I'd be interested in knowing if anyone would agree that AAA units should have automatic defensive fire against enemy aircraft regardless if the AAA are next to a unit the AAA are meant to defend or are merely in range of any enemy aircraft that ends its turn within range of your own or the computers AAA units. For example: a enemy bomber flies into range of one of my AAA guns which is by it self, the bomber attacks a city occupied by my forces, even if my AAA is not directly next to the city but is in range to shoot down the bomber, you'd think it would shoot. Shouldn't it?

[javalang]

Hey Tima, PG2 had this feature with artillery I from memory. Any artillery in range of a defending target would open fire on the attacker before the attacker could get a single shot off at the enemy. It was devastating for infantry sometimes. I think they even had counter-battery fire somewhere, so that if you fired artillery at artillery, the enemy artillery would fire back, not sure which game this was though, it's something that modern artillery can do with calculating the trajectory of incoming fire and getting precise locations of the source and shooting back. So, they need to shoot and move nowadays. Your idea is good though, I support it!

[Dreadgod]

One benefit of double hex range for certain armoured units is that the AI and player can avoid the over crowding that sometimes goes on around choking points such as cities along major rivers etc which especially the computer AI engages in to its tactical detriment. I think units such as the German 88's AT/AA should have double hex fire abilities in AT mode. Or Tanks with the same calibre such as the Tiger. Historically, such as the case of a Tiger tank hitting and damaging a allied destroyer off the shore of Italy would give credence to a double hex tank capability.

I argue that the scale used in Panzer Corps would make such a suggestion utterly unrealistic; with a hex in some cases being a few hundred kilometers across, it simply wouldn't fit with any game mechanic.

On a broader point, choke points are a fundamental (and inescapable) reality of good defensive ground. There should be choke points as you describe, because it fits in so well with the agony of pursuing an aggressive assault when your opponent commands superior terrain. 2-hex fire, in anything other than real artillery, would upset that game mechanic.

On a similar train of thought, I'd be interested in knowing if anyone would agree that AAA units should have automatic defensive fire against enemy aircraft regardless if the AAA are next to a unit the AAA are meant to defend or are merely in range of any enemy aircraft that ends its turn within range of your own or the computers AAA units. For example: a enemy bomber flies into range of one of my AAA guns which is by it self, the bomber attacks a city occupied by my forces, even if my AAA is not directly next to the city but is in range to shoot down the bomber, you'd think it would shoot. Shouldn't it?

On this point though, I can see the logic. I feel like it would very likely tip the scales unfairly against aircraft (how could a ground attack plane ever attack if there's a six-hex-wide diameter of death everywhere he flies?), but I'll concede that anti-air artillery does have the advantage of clear lines of fire across lone distances. Again though, my counter-argument would first be, "consider the scale used in the game". 100-200 miles is a loooooong way...

[SAVOIE73]

Well, my original point considered that range of "Pak" - long barrelled guns such as 75 mm and 88 mm have a dramatically increased range compared to any other early war anti-tank guns. Effective range of 37 mm or 50 mm is between 300 and 1 500 m while 75 and 88 are between 500 and ... 3000 m ... For that reason I was incline to consider that all long barrelled guns should get a "2 hex" range. Remember also that 88's were able to be used as "light artillery" with effective range up to 7 km.

[Duke748]

Hi Guys

I'm a complete newbie to Panzer Corps (PC) so please excuse any silly questions...

I've recently got Battleground Ardennes (BGA) working again after many years (in Win 10 32 bit) and I downloaded the Steam version of PC yesterday evening as I was looking for a more modern equivalent with similar features (plus the ability to build scenarios from scratch, which you couldn't do in BGA). I'm very impressed but the following things had me scratching my head a little:

In BGA (playing the US forces) I regularly had my Sherman tanks shot to pieces from quite long range by German Tigers and Panthers (as happened in real life, I believe). My return (defensive) fire might as well have been done with pea shooters!! I kind of get what Kerensky is saying but having to get your Panthers and Tigers in adjacent hexes to US/British tanks before you can hit them does seem to negate the real power of the German kinetic energy rounds. Sherman tanks weren't nicknamed "Ronson's" for nothing

In BGA you can also stack multiple units on a single hex (up to a point) which was very effective for joint arms operations. Are there any plans to allow this in future versions?

Cheers

[captainjack]

Sherman tanks weren't nicknamed "Ronson's" for nothing

Actually they weren't nicknamed Ronsons at all.

Even with dry stowage Shermans usually had crew survivability after a penetration as good or better than any other tanks. ANd remember that even in a poor tank the survival rate overall is much better for a man in a shirt with a rifle. For a good comparison of Sherman vs other tanks, one of the late war Polish tank brigades used both Cromwells and Shermans so the survival stats aren't much affected by different training and experience levels. Since they fought in the British sectors, they generally faced more tanks than the American sectors (including tigers which were rare in the American sectors). I'm not 100% sure but it would probably be in Axishistory.com (search for Ron Klages Panzer). It's also worth looking at "Oh no the tank is on fire" to get a feel for how easy it is to exit different tanks in a hurry - the same presenter (The Chieftain) also deals to quite a few other myths about Shermans in one of the American tanks conventions - worth a look.

Also, on Ron Klages Panzer Forum there's an article called (I think) The view from over the hill. This describes the reaction of a german tank crew to being fired on by Shermans, which makes an interesting contrast to the American report which describes how ineffective their own shells were.

Anyway, venting over, and back to your point. By modding the equipment file, you can give tanks and AT guns range 1 instead of or as well as giving them greater initiative and higher hard attack (LoV Redux does this for some AT units, as does one of Nico's mods). This allows them to attack without taking return fire. Personally I think it is OK for units with the long 88, or the 128 (Nashorn, Tiger 2, Jagdpather and Jagdtiger) since there are records of very long range hits with these weapons, and maybe for Hetzers which were noted for effective hit and run tactics. However, it does make them very powerful - possibly too powerful. For my 2 cents worth, it's probably best to have a switch - just as the 88 can switch between AT and AA mode- from normal (range 0) to long range (range 1). Probably in Long range version you'd give them lower move and reduced rate of fire, to allow for greater care needed for aiming and for getting into a good position for a clear shot.

Note that while modding files isn't that hard, backing up first lies somewhere between "really important" and "essential".

[Duke748]

Hi captainjack and thanks for your reply; and for correcting a few of my misheld beliefs about the M4 Sherman. I'll certainly check out those references you supplied.

Took me a while to find the range column in the equipment.pzeqp file but I've managed to change the values now.

Cheers

[huckc]

Also, on Ron Klages Panzer Forum there's an article called (I think) The view from over the hill. This describes the reaction of a german tank crew to being fired on by Shermans, which makes an interesting contrast to the American report which describes how ineffective their own shells were.

One of my favorite Sherman stories on the receiving end goes like this:
A scout car was guarding a city corner, gun trained on anything that crosses. Sure enough a Sherman rumbles past, sees the scout car with its gun pointed at it, and manages to get three shots into it before the scout car can hope to return fire. Fortunately the commander of the British scout car survived without injury and personally commended the Sherman crew, being allies after all

In the game it seems that tank initiative = range. Gun range is important but so is turret traversal, aiming speed, comms quality, and general crew ergonomics. The average ww2 tank engagement range according to a US army study was between 686m and 823m. A surprisingly long distance admittedly when you consider the environment in Italy and France.