Tercio sopporting artillery

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 1:19 am

I was wondering how one places an early Tercio when it is providing rear support to an artillery battery.

If the Tercio is lined up so its pikes are behind a two gun battery, does it move up so the pikes are in contact with the rear of the battery and the front shot horns stick up and out on either side?

That is what I would assume.

How about a 3 gun battery? Do you push up the pikes and one shot horn so they form a line behind the guns, or do the shot horns move up and contact the battery and the pikes stay back but still provide rear support?

Trying to figure out how to protect my Catholic German guns from marauding Protestants.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 2:00 am

Not even Tilly would support artillery with a tercio!!!! Get out in the open and fight like the doomed dog you are!!!!!!!!

timmy1 · Post by **timmy1** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 4:50 pm

Were you to want to do it, the Pike move forwards to be level with the horns at the moment of impact so you line the horns up with the rear of the battery.

I should warn you that this is such a girly trick that even Mr. Powell would nere stoop so low...

shadowdragon · Post by **shadowdragon** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 10:05 pm

Blathergut wrote:Not even Tilly would support artillery with a tercio!!!! Get out in the open and fight like the doomed dog you are!!!!!!!!

Churchill once said of the Americans...."You can count on the Americans to do the right thing....after they have tried every other possibility."

Could the same be said of deadtorius?

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Tue Jan 24, 2012 11:57 pm

30 Years War Early German Catholic

What else do you get besides early Tercios and those dastardly Protestants are always lurking about with their eyes gazing longingly at our artillery, which won't be ours if it is not protected by something.

When the blasphemous ones get close then the Tercio's will venture forward and bring doom and despair to those of the not so true faith, or at least hope our die rolls work out for us for a change. Actually main reason I hate venturing out is that Blathergut is running Later German Protestants with Swedish allies, not a great thing to get hit by if you can avoid it.

Next outing is this weekend so I will see what my Tercio's can do.

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 12:50 am

ehehehehehehe ... wait until you see the new recruits ...

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 2:51 am

Made a trip to Sweden recently did you???

wait till you see my surprise for you

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 8:59 am

timmy1 wrote:Where you to want to do it, the Pike move forwards to be level with the horns at the moment of impact so you line the horns up with the rear of the battery.

I should warn you that this is such a girly trick that even Mr. Powell would nere stoop so low...

And it wouldn't work anyway if the enemy contrived not to hit the tercio, but only the artillery.

timmy1 · Post by **timmy1** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 9:04 am

Richard

May I ask why not? It might be that I have misread the rules.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:14 am

timmy1 wrote:Richard

May I ask why not? It might be that I have misread the rules.

Because if nothing hits the tercio, there is no reason for the pikes to be moved forward.

Specifically I was thinking of a case where the pikes are behind the artillery but the shot aren't. You may have meant otherwise.

However, even if you have one file of shot behind one of the artillery bases, your opponent could contact only the artillery bases that have pikes behind them, in which case it is at least arguable that the artillery bases contacted would be unsupported, that as no base of the tercio has been contacted the pikes don't step forward, and hence the artillery are captured. Best not go there, in my opinion. (Unless you want the full half hour argument, or have previously bribed the umpire).

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:46 am

RBS:

I'm not quite sure what you mean:

1) If an ET is behind artillery, can it be positioned so that the two bases of arty are in contact with the two bases of pikes and the shotte horns are up beside the arty on each side by a base? The arty is supported then and if hit from the front, the ET pikes could fight?

or

2) An ET would have to line up with the front of the shotte horns level with the back of the arty and the pikes cannot tuck up against the arty hence no support?

or

3) Both the above are possible depending on the position of the ET.

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Wed Jan 25, 2012 10:57 am

Blathergut wrote:RBS:

I'm not quite sure what you mean:

1) If an ET is behind artillery, can it be positioned so that the two bases of arty are in contact with the two bases of pikes and the shotte horns are up beside the arty on each side by a base? The arty is supported then and if hit from the front, the ET pikes could fight?

Yes, though as the pikes are theoretically level with the front of the artillery, arguably the shot should be stepped forward one base depth from the front of the artillery. OTOH this causes issues of positioning when contact is made.

2) An ET would have to line up with the front of the shotte horns level with the back of the arty and the pikes cannot tuck up against the arty hence no support?

Tim was suggested this deployment as an option, but I think it is too grey an area to attempt without prior agreement from your opponent. i.e. There may be some circumstances in which the artillery would not count supported - though they would in others.

3) Both the above are possible depending on the position of the ET.

Yes, with the caveat that you might fall foul of a rules argument.

Personally, having just come 4th out of 24 at Usk with an army containing 3 Early Tercios (2 superior, 1 average, each 6 pike bases + 8 shot), I think the tactic of supporting artillery with an early tercio is a waste of resources, as well as being rather over-defensive - I see Early Tercios as aggressive attacking formations.

What we did (with one BG of medium artillery) was either

a) leave a 2 base gap between the Superior tercios and put the artillery 15 ins on to the table opposite the gap (and as the tercios advanced past the artillery, the enemy could not get to the artillery without being shot to pieces by the tercios) , or,
b) put the (limbered) artillery behind one of the tercios, advance it behind the tercio and then wheel it to shoot at the enemy cavalry on the wing, or
c) Put the artillery on a carefully placed low hill forward of the gap between the tercios and then wheel the tercios so that they form a solid front in front of the artillery.

All of these tactics proved effective, particularly (b).

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:13 am

egads

I must now pay for the useless limbers... No wonder you all want me to sally forth with the Tercio's and leave the poor arty as a target of opportunity. think I will have to use the later Tercio's for artillery defence, only 9 bases 3 wide in those boys.

As for hills it seems the placement die rolls usually end up with them landing in enemy territory so I am hesitant to take them, although last time out I did manage to get one and my artillery was able to deploy just on the top in front of the rear slope, no thanks to the dastardly Protestants who attempted to move it forward on me so my artillery would end up on the rear slope shooting at low flying birds instead of their troops. If the two gun minimum was not mandatory I would just skip the arty and solve all my problems

Blathergut · Post by **Blathergut** » Thu Jan 26, 2012 12:43 am

We'll buy it from you down near Madgeburg tomorrow evening!

(I get the extra arty and you can have 20 pts advantage!!)

timmy1 · Post by **timmy1** » Fri Jan 27, 2012 8:20 pm

Richard

You are correct.

Have to get the Keil 2 bases wide to hit the tercio defending the artillery I can see.

bahdahbum · Post by **bahdahbum** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 2:29 pm

However, even if you have one file of shot behind one of the artillery bases, your opponent could contact only the artillery bases that have pikes behind them, in which case it is at least arguable that the artillery bases contacted would be unsupported, that as no base of the tercio has been contacted the pikes don't step forward, and hence the artillery are captured. Best not go there, in my opinion. (Unless you want the full half hour argument, or have previously bribed the umpire).

Dear Richard and as YOU wrote the rules, i am interrested in a firm answer : how should it be resolved ? and yes I want the full half hour argument

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:10 pm

bahdahbum wrote:
However, even if you have one file of shot behind one of the artillery bases, your opponent could contact only the artillery bases that have pikes behind them, in which case it is at least arguable that the artillery bases contacted would be unsupported, that as no base of the tercio has been contacted the pikes don't step forward, and hence the artillery are captured. Best not go there, in my opinion. (Unless you want the full half hour argument, or have previously bribed the umpire).
Dear Richard and as YOU wrote the rules, i am interrested in a firm answer : how should it be resolved ? and yes I want the full half hour argument

No argument Jacques.

I am not going to issue an "official" pronouncement on such a marginal issue. Hence any pronouncement I do give will be valueless in actual play as the umpire may not have read or remembered it. If you choose to present the umpire with a piece of paper with my reply on it, then in my opinion you should be automatically disqualified. (We had all that with WRG rules, and it sucks). The umpire's decision is final - AND MAY VARY FROM TOURNAMENT TO TOURNAMENT. You have to live with it.

Hence it is best to avoid such a grey area, especially when the proposed tactic is a waste of resources anyway.

quackstheking · Post by **quackstheking** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 3:30 pm

Well said Richard.

The rules and play should as best as possible replicate what actually happened and Tercios being deployed as defensive support to artillery, was not what happened. If you choose to do it (unhistorically), then you should be as prepared for the vagaries of an umpiring decision as you would the vagaries of war!!!

Don

bahdahbum · Post by **bahdahbum** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 5:28 pm

The problem being : try to avoid such grey areas ....everybody knows that during a tournament strange situations appear here and there . And some people will always try to discuss what is said if it is not written down

By the way what tercio's army was it that you used and was the tournament themed ?

I know it is a bit outside the topic but in our tournament some people were of the opinion that tercios were next to useless toys but a catholic french army ( franch war of religion ) ended 3rd on 8 !

rbodleyscott · Post by **rbodleyscott** » Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:31 pm

bahdahbum wrote:By the way what tercio's army was it that you used and was the tournament themed ?

I know it is a bit outside the topic but in our tournament some people were of the opinion that tercios were next to useless toys but a catholic french army ( franch war of religion ) ended 3rd on 8 !

I used Later Austrian Imperial, which has cuirassiers (and LF arqubusiers to screen them) as well as early tercios, a nice combination.

I was very impressed by their efficacy. (I am much less impressed with Later Tercios). The ability to press forward without any concern for flanks/rear was very liberating.

However, this tournament was limited to armies before 1591, so there were no 6 base pike and musket BGs.
I suspect the tercios would be far less effective in that environment. But I am not sure of that, they might bludgeon their way through the smaller BGs. I just need to pluck up the courage to try an early tercio army in an open tournament