Can anyone other than Swiss use Keils?

AdamB · Post by **AdamB** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:11 am

Despite a number of references in FOGR rules to other armies being able to use Keils, i've only noticed references to them in the forums as being used by the Swiss. I'm just wondering if i've missed something or whether any Trade & treachery army with enough pike can actually utilise this formation as well.

timmy1 · Post by **timmy1** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:33 am

Loads of armies HAVE to have them. Just working from the front of the book:

Maximilian Imperial
German States from 1513
Italian Wars French (from 1513 to 1522 they can't be Swiss - and if the list was historically accurate there would be a different range of dates)
Trastamara Spanish prior to 1504
Italian Wars Venetian prior to 1510
Scotish from 1513
Peasant Wars
Later Henrician English
Early Imperial Spanish Italy/Flanders prior to 1602
French Wars of Religion Catholic and Huguenot (sometimes they are Royal Swiss so may not count)
Early 80YW Dutch prior to 1578

I think you would see them much more in Italian Wars competitions. Any theme prior to 1590 is likely to have some of them, I would expect.

timmy1 · Post by **timmy1** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 10:33 am

I think Mr Porter may have used some, not sur,e best to check his site.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:00 am

No, the formation "Kiel" simply requires the following of a BG:

- BG must have 2 or more files, each of which must have at least 4 files.
- at least two bases in each of 2 such files must be pike, and the rest in that file must be pike, heavy weapon or swordsmen.

It's not limited to Swiss. So, for example, Landesknects can use Kiel. Indeed, it's not even limited to Trade and Treachery armies (though later armies are unlikely to have the big lumps of pikemen that the rule requires)

The army list for the Swiss muddies the water a bit as it names some troops as "Pike Kiels". Regardless of the name, they won't count as a Kiel formation unless they meet the criteria. The main issue for them being whether they are deep enough to form Kiel.

Kiels formed from heavy foot rather than the faster determined foot are likely to suffer more from missiles.

timmy1 · Post by **timmy1** » Tue Jan 10, 2012 11:05 am

Graham's answer is a good summary of the position. One small typo to correct.

'
- BG must have 2 or more files, each of which must have at least 4 files.
'

should read

'
- BG must have 2 or more files, each of which must have at least 4 bases.
'