LIGHT HORSE IN TERRAIN

[donm]

Steve and I had great problems with this over the weekend.

Most other Ancient rules I have played over the years has always given L/F the advantage over L/H while fighting in disordering terrain. You certainly think it is the safest place for them. After the weekend it would appear that this is not the case with FoG.

In my game on Saturday afternoon I had a BG of 6 L/F facing an enemy BG of 6 L/H inside an enclosed fields. If we had come to combat the following would have happen'

6 x L/H get one dice per base when fighting L/F, less 1 in 3 for being disordered, gives a total of 4 dice.
6 x L/F get one dice per two bases when fighting L/H, gives a total of 3 dice.

By the way the L/H do not need to take a CMT to charge.

Now you may say that enclosed fields are not that much of a problem for L/H.

In Steve's game on Sunday afternoon he had a BG of 6 L/F in a wood facing a BG of 6 L/H

6 x L/H get one dice per base when fighting L/F, less 1 in 2 for being severely disordered, gives a total of 3 dice.
6 x L/F get one dice per two bases when fighting L/H, gives a total of 3 dice.

Again no test needed by the L/H to charge.

I hope that we have missed something in the rules, as this looks very wrong to us.

Don M

[rbodleyscott]

LF are for shooting with, not for close combat. Even in bad terrain.

[shall]

It rectifies and old myth. Mounted troop who oerate in losse foramtion were actually very effective in gentle rough terrain - which we term uneven.

A man on a horse is a good opponent for a man on foot if both are in loose formation and the horse is able to cope with the terrain - so in rough its not too bad.

It's in difficult that its a real problem - heavily disordeing the mounted but not the foot at all.

This is all mucyh more reaslitic than some previously wargaming mythology.

Si

[donm]

LF are for shooting with, not for close combat. Even in bad terrain.

So we can add clearing L/F out of woods as part of L/H's role on the battlefield

Don M

[CYRANOINLONDON]

FWIW Rick has caught me out repeatedly because of this. I merrily stick my LF in rough going to hold up a flank and he rides them down with LH A new tactic needs devising; blocks of Bw on the flank can be quite an obstacle.
Regards
Chris

[donm]

It's in difficult that its a real problem - heavily disordeing the mounted but not the foot at all.

Doesn't seem much of a problem for the L/H if the worst then end with is equal dice.

Don M

[rbodleyscott]

It's in difficult that its a real problem - heavily disordeing the mounted but not the foot at all.

Doesn't seem much of a problem for the L/H if the worst then end with is equal dice.

Don M

If the LF do choose to engage the LF in close combat, they are usually in larger battle groups than LH. On equal dice and (if the LH are not steppe nomads) equal POAs, they are likely to win due to overlaps.

This presupposes that they engage in close combat which was not their historical role.

It seems that the DBM "in contact does not equal being in hand-to-hand combat" rationale (which proved so hard for many to accept in the first place) is proving difficult to eradicate. People are so used to LF going into contact with enemy in DBM that they forget that in DBM this does not represent hand-to-hand combat. In FoG being in contact does mean being in hand to hand contact. A trusty fruit knife does not hack it against a sabre, even in a wood.

Ambushing 4 LH in the flank in a wood with 6 javelinmen, however, should prove very effective.

Try attacking with LH into a wood against MF light spear (javelinmen willing to fight hand-to-hand) and see how well they do.

[jre]

Terrain makes it likely that you will evade the LH, and then you go back and shoot them (with them having less dice and if severely disordered cohesion test penalties).

Nevertheless I prefer to take my LF protected when possible. Cheap in cost and any extra help against other skirmishers counts a lot more as dissuasion than effective use.

LF are not good as terrain holders (although if you have ground to give, they are good flank guards) because they will have to evade away any enemy. That is a job for MF.

José

[donm]

Terrain makes it likely that you will evade the LH, and then you go back and shoot them (with them having less dice and if severely disordered cohesion test penalties).

In the two cases above the L/H counted as being in cover and so shooting was not effective either.

Don M

[shall]

IF you take LH vs LF then they are.........

6 bases vs 6 bases in uneven or open usually 6 dice vs 3 dice on a + or evens

In rough the LH are DIS so 4 dice vs 3 dice on a + or evens

In difficult they are Sev DIS so 3 dice vs 3 dice on a + or evens

So the 2 other factors are size of BG and shooting.......

A LF BG will typically be 8 and a LH 4 or 6 - so more likely to be in fact 8 vs 4.

4 vs 3
3 vs 3
2 vs 3

Then you have the shooting effects and one would hope the LF will manage to shoot the LH up with greater numbers if used well unless in the open or uneven wheere the game is set up so that the LH can catch the LF without firing much. This is intentional and one needs to realise the uneven is exactly that - no obstacle at all to loose or light troops.

Hence tested out fully you will find the LH > LF in open or uneven
Rough an fairly even fight
Difficult big advantage to the LF

It basically means a new way of using LF and LH. LH are partyl there to get rid of enemy irritants adn damn good at it. LF need some support to deal with this or need to have terrain that is genuinely hard work for the LH - so put marshes down for instance. LF need to be in sufficiant numbers to swamp LH screens. All vry reaslisitc - just not what we have been sued to these last many years.

I would need to have Don's specific example in detail to comment, but it seems to me that X points of LF managed to keep 2x points of LH busy in difficult going which ain't a bad thing in overall game terms.

Si

[dave_r]

Hence tested out fully you will find the LH > LF in open or uneven
Rough an fairly even fight
Difficult big advantage to the LF

Actually, I had exactly this scenario the other week. In fact my LF got massacred by the LH who were in Difficult. The LH were Javelins, Light Spear. Hence were a + in impact and evens in melee. Even sized BG's.

They disrupted me at impact and then routed me in the combat phase!

At the time I had a bit of a whinge about this, but decided that I was still in "DBM" mode. I realised if I had shot at the LH then I would have had three dice to his two and been able to evade very easily. The moral of the story is don't charge with LF in FoG. (which seems reasonable) In DBM, I think the combat factors don't just take into account the physical hand to hand combat but also the shooting.

[hammy]

I can still remember seeing a BG of LF charge a BG of elephants in the Usk tournament (when Lf could charge real troops if they wanted). The owner of the LF was very surprised when the elephants slaughtered his LF.

LF are fine in a skirmishing role so that has to be the best way to use them IMO.

[shall]

Exactly

And Light horse beating LF soemtimes in difficult is not unusual I would suggest. Its not the LH advatange overall but not that unreasonable - after all such a fight really is a loose fight of 1 man on a horse vs 1 man on foot. The odd tree in the way hampers both a fair bit. What hlps most is having 2 men on foot to 1 man on a horse.

Sui

[donm]

A LF BG will typically be 8 and a LH 4 or 6 - so more likely to be in fact 8 vs 4.

This certainly was not typical at Roll Call. I had 1 BG of 6 javelinmen, 1 BG of 4 archers and 1 BG of 6 slingers.
However my army did not allow the archers and slingers to be any larger.

What was interesting was that other people who could have L/F BGs of 8 elements chose not to have then.
Most opting for 6 elements and in some cases 4 elements.

So the 2 other factors are size of BG and shooting.......

From the above I don't think you can count on out numbering and as I said in my previous posting both L/H and L/F count as in cover and so the shooting is by no means certain.

I don't have a major problem with this, if this is the way it is to be, then so be it. I just thought it very strange and not what I had been use to from many other sets of rules. That is why I brought it to your attention.

Don M

[shall]

Interesting Don. I shall watch Britocn with interest.

I think it is more a dramatic change in usage and style from the mythology we have been used too that's all. Takes a bit of getting used to and fun to tread on the odd mine on the way! Given numbers so far as you going to join the foggers at Britcon?

Si

[lawrenceg]

Hence tested out fully you will find the LH > LF in open or uneven
Rough an fairly even fight
Difficult big advantage to the LF

Actually, I had exactly this scenario the other week. In fact my LF got massacred by the LH who were in Difficult. The LH were Javelins, Light Spear. Hence were a + in impact and evens in melee. Even sized BG's.

They disrupted me at impact and then routed me in the combat phase!

At the time I had a bit of a whinge about this, but decided that I was still in "DBM" mode. I realised if I had shot at the LH then I would have had three dice to his two and been able to evade very easily. The moral of the story is don't charge with LF in FoG. (which seems reasonable) In DBM, I think the combat factors don't just take into account the physical hand to hand combat but also the shooting.

I agree with this. In melee in difficult going LH are the equal of LF (unless someone has a light spear), but the LH are at a disadvantage for shooting and at -1 on cohesion tests for the severe disorder. The LF move faster than the LH so will normally be able to evade a charge. The best strategy for LF bow is to skirmish and shoot. They may eventually get flushed out into the open, but they are in with a chance until that happens. This interaction favours the LF a lot less than in DBM, but it still favours the LF.

[donm]

Given numbers so far as you going to join the foggers at Britcon?

Not unless the 25mm DBM competition suffers from a lack of numbers.

I have not long finshed my 25mm Sassanids and would like to use them soon.

Sassanids were my first ever 25mm metal army some ?? years ago and hold a special place in my wargaming heart. It has taken me several months to add all the extra cavalry figures required for the DBM minima of 22 elements and so it would be nice to get them on to the table. I may not win many games with them, but It will be nice to show them off.

I don't have a problem with FoG and did enjoy the Roll Call weekend alot. The worring thing is I enjoy 15mm FoG, but have invested alot of money in 25mm figures over the last ten years.

Don M

[shall]

I don't have a problem with FoG and did enjoy the Roll Call weekend alot. The worring thing is I enjoy 15mm FoG, but have invested alot of money in 25mm figures over the last ten years.

Don't worry we are very committed to the 25mm game. As soon as we finish FOG in fact I am painting up a 25mm army. Possibly Aztecs for fun, possibly Early Imperial Roman. It's already being planned as my birthday pressie for this year.

I am sure there will be plenty of FOG 25mm comps in due course. I certainly plan to play in a few.

Si