pre-1040 arab in europe

[didrobert]

Hi everybody
i'm looking for an arab army wich fought in europe before 1040 , andalusian , umayyad in spain , taifa kingdom , what else ?
is hvy inf. def spear with LF bow on third rank efficient ?
i find it's a waste of money cause it's only useful against CV .

[philqw78]

The rank of LF is very useful when being shot at, its also more cost effective for superior troops. Its awful if you get charged in the rear. It also makes it pointless standing camels behind your spear to disorder knights.

I normally wouldn't bother unless I knew I was going to fight a lot of mounted, which I suppose those arabs did.

[grahambriggs]

Fanatic Berber is another option - the Murabits invaded Spain.

I would not bother with the supporting LF in these armies. They are good for bulk and help a tiny bit against mounted. However, protected defensive spear is a cheap troop type so you save very few points taking the LF.

Also, the spears will get into melee a fair amount and will start losing bases. what you really want in your third rank then is more spears, not Light foot - as soon as you take 2 casualties you start losing dice with the LF. And the last thing you need when a bit battered is to lose fighting dice.

[ravenflight]

I agree with Phil.

I use the third rank for the Huscarles in my Viking army. It increases the number of BG's of Huscarles I can have and makes them THAT much harder to kill or shoot up. EXPENSIVE but points well spent. I don't think I'd ever take an army that was 'all or nothing'.

[grahambriggs]

As food for thought here's a Taifa of Murcia, 1149AD army I used at Warfare in the UK this year:

4TCs
4BGs 6 av LF bow
6BGs 4 av LH javs, LS
2BGs, 8 protected HF av DS (1 drilled, 1 undrilled)
2BGs, 4 armoured superior knights
8 undrilled protected superior MF, off sp
4 drilled armoured MF, av, LS, Sw

It did well against the in period opponents (themed to avoid HA knights)

[Polkovnik]

is hvy inf. def spear with LF bow on third rank efficient ?

No. You would be much better off with 8 def spear than 6 def spear + 3 LF. IMO this is a negative point for armies with compulsory Def spear + LF.

[Polkovnik]

I would not bother with the supporting LF in these armies. They are good for bulk and help a tiny bit against mounted. However, protected defensive spear is a cheap troop type so you save very few points taking the LF.

Trouble is you don't get any choice in many of the Islamic armies.

[didrobert]

Many thanks gentlemen , you make my feeling stronger , but my arab army is going to become rusty and the game is near Poitiers so no choice i have otherwise to carry my cross ! i'm going to play andalusian ( 929-977 )
1 BG jund cv drilled
2 BGs arab CV und. arm. and 1 BG und. prot. , all sup.
2 BGs reg. def. spear. 8 bases average
1 BG levy def. spear. 10 bases poor
3 BGs LH 4 bases each
1 BG black guard 6 def. spear. sup
1 BG slav guard 6 arm. lght sp./swords sup.
1 BG MF 6 bases lght. spear
1 BG 8 LF poor bow
4 TCs
i'm trying to get my revenge on the 732 AD expedition ...

[peteratjet]

A LF rear rank for the Slav Guard is a much better deal than for the masses of defensive spear. The unprotected LF are relatively cheaper if the close combat troops are armoured, and the light spear + sword combo retains its full POA even if it suffers a base loss and a LF base finds itself in the second rank.

Having said that, using a LF rear rank with protected defensive spear has some advantages. The bulked-up spear unit is much less vulnerable to shooting, and in an era where you can expect to get charged by shock cavalry, the edge provided by the LF is not to be sniffed at.

[Polkovnik]

Having said that, using a LF rear rank with protected defensive spear has some advantages. The bulked-up spear unit is much less vulnerable to shooting.

6 Def Sp + 3 LF is no better against shooting than 8 Def Sp. Needs 3 hits for a CT either way.

and in an era where you can expect to get charged by shock cavalry, the edge provided by the LF is not to be sniffed at.

I'd still rather have 8 def spear. Yes the 6 + 3 LF are slightly better at impact, but one base loss and they are in trouble. Also in big trouble if charged in the rear, even by LH.