Conforming and Interior Overlaps vs Multiple BGs

bbotus · Post by **bbotus** » Wed Dec 21, 2011 9:12 pm

The left flank was beaten and the knights found themselves being surrounded and finally did what knights do, they charged home. A contacted first, D stepped forward into contact and B also. C had the 2 MUs and could have stepped into 4 but it would have separated itself from D and therefore could not step forward. All Impact cohesion tests and death rolls were passed successfully.

Question 1: Is there a way to conform the knights in the Manoeuver Phase? Or, do they stay as shown and fight as if conformed?

Question 2: In the melee both 1 and 7 are in overlap positions but 3 and 4 should both fight C. Would you allow both files 3 and 4 to fight? Or would you only allow one of them to fight in the melee?

Question 2a: If either file 3 or file 4 but not both fight in melee, who decides which one will fight?

Question 3: If the knights do not conform in the Manoeuver Phase, would you then have the Cav and Bows conform in their Manoeuver Phase?

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 2:59 am

The knights cannot conform, so remain where they are and fight as if conformed.
A fights 6, B fights 5, D fights 2. C could conform to either 3 or 4, but 4 is the conform that requires the shortest move to reach so C fights 4.
Overlaps: 1 overlaps D, 7 overlaps A. 3 cannot overlap because it is not on the outside of A-D.
Since both File 3 and file 4 must conform to C, none of the BGs conform in their maneuver phase.
Conforming will only be possible when:
1) Base D is used to fill the spot vacated by A or B being eliminated.
2) Bows lose two bases and through a combination of replacing bases and feeding more bases into melee file 3 is eliminated.
3) Cav 1 routs
4) Bows rout

bbotus · Post by **bbotus** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:08 am

gozerius wrote:The knights cannot conform, so remain where they are and fight as if conformed.
A fights 6, B fights 5, D fights 2. C could conform to either 3 or 4, but 4 is the conform that requires the shortest move to reach so C fights 4.
Overlaps: 1 overlaps D, 7 overlaps A. 3 cannot overlap because it is not on the outside of A-D.
Since both File 3 and file 4 must conform to C, none of the BGs conform in their maneuver phase.
Conforming will only be possible when:
1) Base D is used to fill the spot vacated by A or B being eliminated.
2) Bows lose two bases and through a combination of replacing bases and feeding more bases into melee file 3 is eliminated.
3) Cav 1 routs
4) Bows rout

That's helpful, thanks. I particularly like the shortest move idea.

It is possible that Cav 1 and Cav 2 could conform in their turn and end in a normal formation without moving the bows. What about having the 2 Cav units conform and leaving the Bows in their offset position?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 1:12 pm

The 2 cavalry may conform without the bows conforming, so should if they can.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Thu Dec 22, 2011 9:40 pm

gozerius wrote:1) Base D is used to fill the spot vacated by A or B being eliminated.

I am not sure how you plan to make this happen. D is in combat and will not shift position to fill into a front rank bases that is lost in combat.

A will be the first base removed due to losses regardless. No one is available to fill in.

bbotus · Post by **bbotus** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 6:04 am

A will be the first base removed due to losses regardless. No one is available to fill in.

Interesting point. Let's discuss it a moment. Base Removal on page 116 says to remove any front rank base facing the BG which inflicted the most hits. So if the bows do 3 hits and each cav unit only does 1 or 2, shouldn't the base removed be D?

On the other hand, if Cav 1 did the most hits then B or C should be removed creating a gap. Then bases must be shifted sideways to fill the gap since no rear rank is available. It says not to leave any BG without a base to face if possible. Clearly this isn't possible. If B or C is removed, wouldn't the knight's player get to decide whether to shift A left or D right? Why or why not?

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:24 pm

bbotus wrote:
A will be the first base removed due to losses regardless. No one is available to fill in.
Interesting point. Let's discuss it a moment. Base Removal on page 116 says to remove any front rank base facing the BG which inflicted the most hits. So if the bows do 3 hits and each cav unit only does 1 or 2, shouldn't the base removed be D?

On the other hand, if Cav 1 did the most hits then B or C should be removed creating a gap. Then bases must be shifted sideways to fill the gap since no rear rank is available. It says not to leave any BG without a base to face if possible. Clearly this isn't possible. If B or C is removed, wouldn't the knight's player get to decide whether to shift A left or D right? Why or why not?

Perhaps you should read a little further.

I don't have my rules with me but it goes on to say unless removing the base would take one of the BGs it is facing out of direct contact.

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:35 pm

I concur that base A will be the first base lost or used to replace a base loss as it can be removed without losing contact with Cav 2. Cav 2 would still count as overlapping with file 6.
If Base A is taken as a casualty, it cannot be replaced, as this would cause the BG to lose contact with the Bows. Sharp eyes Hazelbark.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 5:45 pm

It is the nature of all games that you often are assuming the focus is over here when a rule comes in over there.
It is why when games get tense or something really matters it is often helpful to slow down and go through each sequence.

Which is part of Phils crazy winter solstice quizs that is fun.

bbotus · Post by **bbotus** » Fri Dec 23, 2011 11:58 pm

It is why when games get tense or something really matters it is often helpful to slow down and go through each sequence.

Exactly, that is why I want to discuss this now so I have a firm basis from which to state what the rules say.

The rules state that bases removed obey the following priorities for removal:
1. shooting - na
2.Close combat: Any front rank base facing the enemy BG which inflicted most hits on the BG. (For sake of argument, we are saying the bows inflicted the most)
5. If a BG is in close combat with 2 or more enemy BGs, do not remove a base that would leave any of the enemy BGs (except those fighting only as an overlap) without a base to face (unless you run out of bases). My note: Removing Base A clearly leaves Cav 2 without a base to face. Removing D leaves the Bows without a base to face.

The last paragraph gives a lot of what ifs: ".... If not, front rank bases that are not in close combat or are only in close combat as an overlap must be used. If there are no such bases available, and there is a gap in the front rank, front rank bases in close combat must be shifted sideways to fill the gap. The player owning the BG chooses which direction to shift, but if possible, it must leave at least one base in contact with each opposing enemy BG (except those fighting only as an overlap)."

So if the Bows inflict the most hits, then D is removed but since that leaves it with no base to face then we shift A, B, and C to the left and that leaves Cav 2 with no base to face. Granted it would still get to fight as an overlap but it is no longer committed to close combat and is free to move away. I don't quite see where this paragraph forces us to maintain contact with the Bows. When the knights lose a base then either the Bows or Cav 2 will not have an opponent to face. I'm not sure there is a choice in this case.

One outcome would be: If the bows inflict more, base D is removed, the knights conform to the Cav in their turn and the Bows charge them in the flank. Ouch. If I had a choice in this situation, I'd be tempted to remain in contact with the Bows and take my chances with the dice rather than a sure loss of a cohesion level. Cav 2 isn't in a position to attack other than as an overlap.

And a corollary question: If there was a small gap between Cav 1 and Cav 2 so that removing Base A would no longer allow Cav 2 to fight as an overlap, would your answer still be the same?

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 5:39 am

Ahh. I see where you are and I have mis typed.

I did not note Cav 1 and 2 as different. I had made them one unit. apologies for not paying closer attention.

Again I cite my wisdom of slowing down and reviewing carefully.

bbotus · Post by **bbotus** » Sat Dec 24, 2011 9:28 am

apologies for not paying closer attention.

Not a problem. But what's the answer?

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Mon Dec 26, 2011 4:15 am

I don't have rules with me so can't parse the text. My recollection is if you have to lose and some BG is going to lose contact and the hits are all equal then IIRC it is the owning players choice. But don't have text. Also to your followup if there was a gap. I suspect that would not matter.

bbotus · Post by **bbotus** » Tue Dec 27, 2011 7:47 am

OK, then I think I'm reading it the same as everyone else.