INTERPENETRATION AND REFORMING

[TERRYFROMSPOKANE]

The arrows represent a friendly BG of medium bows facing to the right. The devils represent my light foot BG that was facing down but has about faced and is ready to evade an enemy charge from below. Let's say that the VMD rolled means the enemy can not reach the evading light foot but the front row of the light foot BG can just barely interpenetrate the closest row of the friendly bows. Refering to the rules on page 48, the light foot can not completely pass through the bows even by exceeding their VMD by 2 MU so the "In all other cases" rule applies.

So, the left two bases in front row of the evading BG will moved all the way through to the far side of the Bows.

1) Do the right two bases of the front row also move that far, or since these bases are not actually interpenetrating the bows, do they just move their VMD and fetch up on a line even with about the middle of the first file of bows?

The second rank of bases does not reach the bows so the evading two bases directly in front of the bows should move up to just touching the bow's near side flank edge.

2) Do the two bases on the right side of the second rank stay back in line with the other second rank bases -OR- do they stay in contact with the two bases of their BG that are directly in front of them?

Thanks, Terry G.

[dave_r]

Only those bases that reach the MF interpenetrate, leaving the BG in a bit of a mess.

However, this is solved at the start of the movement phase when the unit reforms - and hence all of it moves through the MF. As long as those bases that didn't reach the MF got walloped by the charging unit

[elysiumsolutions@fsmail.n]

I agree with what Dave said, however, the front rank of the LF is placed just beyond the MF and therefore when they attempt to reform in the movement phase on the most advanced base the position they would take up is inside the MF and consequently I believe that in this situation they stay partially interpenetrated.

Paul

[hazelbark]

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Dave are you saying the BG ends up broken and non-contiguous something like the above?

[bbotus]

I hope he meant this:

[nikgaukroger]

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Dave are you saying the BG ends up broken and non-contiguous something like the above?

I think he is, and it is probably correct as, IIRC, the rules talk about bases that partially interpenetrate and not ranks. You can certainly end up with BGs in all sorts of weird broken formations if the interpenetration is at an angle

[dave_r]

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Dave are you saying the BG ends up broken and non-contiguous something like the above?

Yup

[gozerius]

BGs completing a partial interpenetration reform at the end of their move, not at the beginning.

PS: Dave is wrong.

[dave_r]

BGs completing a partial interpenetration reform at the end of their move, not at the beginning.

PS: Dave is wrong.

They also do one at the start of the movement phase. Which comes first? The start of the movement phase or the end of the movement phase?

Answers on a postcard please.

[bbotus]

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Dave are you saying the BG ends up broken and non-contiguous something like the above?

I think he is, and it is probably correct as, IIRC, the rules talk about bases that partially interpenetrate and not ranks. You can certainly end up with BGs in all sorts of weird broken formations if the interpenetration is at an angle

Page 48 Interpenetrations talks about the BG not bases interpenetrating. It also says that bases of the moving BG that 'reach' BG being interpenetrated are placed on the far side. The rules specifically use the word 'reach', not touch, not interpenetrate. So the whole 1st rank either gets as far as the BG being interpenetrated or it does not. Same for the 2nd rank.

[gozerius]

BGs completing a partial interpenetration reform at the end of their move, not at the beginning.

PS: Dave is wrong.

They also do one at the start of the movement phase. Which comes first? The start of the movement phase or the end of the movement phase?

Answers on a postcard please.

Page 70, third bullet. A partially interpenetrating BG does not reform until the end of its move. Note the exception explicit to this bullet. "Otherwise, reforming occurs at the start of the maneuver phase..." It can't reform while still interpenetrating since there is no room for the rear bases yet. Unless you are going to argue that the preceding bullet, prohibiting voluntary movement would preclude them from moving at all, in which case, no partially interpentrating BG would ever be able to extract itself from that position.

[gozerius]

Regardless of the movement allowed to the non interpentrating bases, they would still move up to be in contact with the edge of the BG being interpentrated. Whether the front rank bases on the outside of the interpentrated BG move with the rest of the front rank or not is not that important because should the BG get caught they would still fight as if the BG were still contiguous, albeit disordered.
When the BG completes its interpenetration the entire BG will form up on the most forward bases, so you do get a kind of slingshot effect.

[bbotus]

Whether the front rank bases on the outside of the interpentrated BG move with the rest of the front rank or not is not that important because should the BG get caught they would still fight as if the BG were still contiguous, albeit disordered.

True, except if you move like dave_r has suggested in the diagram, the bases on the right only go as far as their VMD and stop while the others that actually interpenetrate get moved beyond. That can be a significant issue for pursuers and evaders but isn't how the rule is written.

[gozerius]

But the diagram Dave r posted doesn't match the OP.
The OP described a situation where only the bases of the front rank reached the BG passed through. That means that all the rear rank should be lined up against the interpenetrated BGs edge, with the two bases that reached on the other side. I will leave what happens to the two righthand files to an umpire's discretion, but I would interpret the requirement to maintain proper formation to allow for the bases to line up perfectly with the rest of the bases in their rank.

[nikgaukroger]

Page 48 Interpenetrations talks about the BG not bases interpenetrating. It also says that bases of the moving BG that 'reach' BG being interpenetrated are placed on the far side. The rules specifically use the word 'reach', not touch, not interpenetrate. So the whole 1st rank either gets as far as the BG being interpenetrated or it does not. Same for the 2nd rank.

IMO that is an odd interpretation of "reach" in this context, and certainly not how it is generally understood played in my experience where reach is taken to be actually contacts. To be honest there is a slight gap in the rules on this, however, I think Dave's version is basically the right one here, although the post above correctly mentions what happens if the 2nd rank does not reach the BG being passed through.

[nikgaukroger]

but I would interpret the requirement to maintain proper formation to allow for the bases to line up perfectly with the rest of the bases in their rank.

I don't believe there is any requirement for the bases in the BG to line up as what happens to them is a compulsory move.

From an umpiring point of view I would generally rule with the basic interpretation principle that the resulting position of the bases should leave as many as possible vulnerable to any enemy following them (as this generally happens in an evade situation) as something has clearly gone wrong I believe this is consistent with the intention.

[bbotus]

IMO that is an odd interpretation of "reach" in this context, and certainly not how it is generally understood played in my experience where reach is taken to be actually contacts.

I can see how it would be played as you say. What I find odd is that the authors chose the word 'reach'. The dictionary defines 'reach' as: To get to or get as far as in moving, going, traveling, etc. So each base either reaches (or gets as far as) the BG to be interpenetrated or it does not. Those that do not 'reach' are placed with the front base in contact. How can this mean anything but all bases that don't reach? There is no category described as those bases moving but off to the side and will not physically interpenetrate the intervening BG so they don't move according to this section. And the bullet paragraph we are discussing is talking about the BG not individual bases interpenetrating another BG. If they wanted only the bases of a BG that would physically interpenetrate another BG to be affected, they could have easily said that.

Just my 2 cents.

[dave_r]

IMO that is an odd interpretation of "reach" in this context, and certainly not how it is generally understood played in my experience where reach is taken to be actually contacts.

I can see how it would be played as you say. What I find odd is that the authors chose the word 'reach'. The dictionary defines 'reach' as: To get to or get as far as in moving, going, traveling, etc. So each base either reaches (or gets as far as) the BG to be interpenetrated or it does not. Those that do not 'reach' are placed with the front base in contact. How can this mean anything but all bases that don't reach? There is no category described as those bases moving but off to the side and will not physically interpenetrate the intervening BG so they don't move according to this section. And the bullet paragraph we are discussing is talking about the BG not individual bases interpenetrating another BG. If they wanted only the bases of a BG that would physically interpenetrate another BG to be affected, they could have easily said that.

Just my 2 cents.

If you follow this argument then you could say that you could move forward of a bg to the side that you havent touched. Which is obviously nonsense.

Was it an american dictionary?

[bbotus]

Was it an american dictionary?

Why, yes it is, Random House Unabridged, New York. It was a present (or a hint ) from a school teacher. Have you sneaky guys gone and changed the language again without telling us on this side of the pond?

If you follow this argument then you could say that you could move forward of a bg to the side that you havent touched.

Sorry, I didn't follow this. A BG is either interpenetrating or it is not. The rules allow certain interpenetrations. It gives options to avoid non permitted interpenetrations. But failing that, the unit must move straight and burst through. There isn't much choice in the matter.

[ShrubMiK]

You may be using a Merkin dictionary, but Dave is clearly using one of his own personal devising!