Christmas Quiz IV

shadowdragon · Post by **shadowdragon** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:07 pm

Something for the FAQ. How many bases of the opponents' bases can fight an orb from a given direction?

We all know the orb fights with 1/4 of its bases in each direction with half of these in the "front rank" and half in the second rank...with a minimum of 1 front rank base.

It would seem, IAW the RAW, that only 1 front rank base of an opponent can fight at impact but 2 front rank bases (and rear rank bases as appropriate) can fight in melee.

RAW...

"Both sides fight with the same number of bases, determined as follows:

- If both sides have an equal number of bases eligible to fight, all of them fight
- If the number of eligible bases is unequal both sides fight with the lower number fo bases."

Presumably the orb rule that Green has only 1 front rank base (in the example) in each direction means it has only one eligible base to fight in each direction so an enemy in contact from a given direction would only get 1 base as well.

There's no such restriction for melee. So red A gets 2 front rank bases

bbotus · Post by **bbotus** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:12 pm

Once again, another issue open to legitimate debate. I can't disagree with the argument for 4 bases of A fighting vs 2 of the green orb as it is based on a general statement in the rules although not specific to orbs. I just think the Orb page supersedes the general melee page on how many bases fight since the orb is a unique formation. It is already penalized by not getting the spear/pike POA and it can't form without a CMT within 6 MUs of the enemy. So why bother even thinking about orb?

Also, if the unit is composed of 4 bases, it would form orb 2x2. Accepting the argument that all bases in contact fight in melee; then you have the situation for a unit contacting the orb facing the 'front' or 'back' would get 4 dice in melee but a unit contacting the orb on the 'right' or 'left' would only get 2 dice. That just is too strange for me to accept as intended by the authors.

The way I read it, the sentences that say how many bases fight and can't be overlapped determines how many bases fight. It is 2 vs 2 from any side. Remember the orb formation depiction rules just show how we represent it in the game and isn't close to anything that would have been an actual orb formation.

And, P.S: I really like these discussions. It helps give me a better understanding of the rules and leads to better decisions on odd situations that arise in games from time to time.

berthier · Post by **berthier** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:25 pm

Maybe because the orb rules say 1/4 of all bases face in each direction and 1/2 of these are considered front rank bases. So if 1/4 of 8 is 2 and half of 2 is 1 there is only one front rank base facing Red A.

In Impact (p. 91) both sides fight with the same number of bases. If there is an equal number of bases in contact, no problem. If there is an equal numer in contact, you fight with the lower number.

If there is only one front rank base in the orb, then Red A has 2 bases to 1 green. Therefore, you fight with the lesser number, 1.

In Melee and after Red A has conformed to the one front rank base (or they fight as if conformed), then Red A gets only the base in front edge contact (p. 92), other bases are overlaps which you don't get vs orbs.

My intention was not to show it as a star formation, it was just a representation since I did not have time to draw the pretty boxes like Phil.

shadowdragon · Post by **shadowdragon** » Mon Dec 12, 2011 11:42 pm

berthier wrote:Maybe because the orb rules say 1/4 of all bases face in each direction and 1/2 of these are considered front rank bases. So if 1/4 of 8 is 2 and half of 2 is 1 there is only one front rank base facing Red A.

In Impact (p. 91) both sides fight with the same number of bases. If there is an equal number of bases in contact, no problem. If there is an equal numer in contact, you fight with the lower number.

If there is only one front rank base in the orb, then Red A has 2 bases to 1 green. Therefore, you fight with the lesser number, 1.

In Melee and after Red A has conformed to the one front rank base (or they fight as if conformed), then Red A gets only the base in front edge contact (p. 92), other bases are overlaps which you don't get vs orbs.

My intention was not to show it as a star formation, it was just a representation since I did not have time to draw the pretty boxes like Phil.

I understand you but unfortunately I have to concede that's not what the rules say.

"Conforming usually means lining up each base in full front edge to front edge contact with an enemy base" - no mention of enemy "front rank" base

For melee - "All bases whose front edge is in contact with enemy fight".

It's clear that the orb restrictions apply to the orb but do they apply to the enemy, and, if so, how? FAQ time.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:57 am

berthier wrote:Maybe because the orb rules say 1/4 of all bases face in each direction and 1/2 of these are considered front rank bases. So if 1/4 of 8 is 2 and half of 2 is 1 there is only one front rank base facing Red A.

In Impact (p. 91) both sides fight with the same number of bases. If there is an equal number of bases in contact, no problem. If there is an equal numer in contact, you fight with the lower number.

If there is only one front rank base in the orb, then Red A has 2 bases to 1 green. Therefore, you fight with the lesser number, 1.

In Melee and after Red A has conformed to the one front rank base (or they fight as if conformed), then Red A gets only the base in front edge contact (p. 92), other bases are overlaps which you don't get vs orbs.

My intention was not to show it as a star formation, it was just a representation since I did not have time to draw the pretty boxes like Phil.

I agree with you with one exception. In melee, Red A has one base in front edge contact with whichever green base wants to count as the 'front rank' base. It has another base in front edge contact with whichever green base wants to count as the second rank base. So both these bases meet the requirement in the rules that "All bases whose front edge is in contact with enemy fight." And their rear ranks will also fight.

That's how the rules are written. Of course, I can't tell you if that is the authors' intent or not.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:53 pm

grahambriggs wrote:I agree with you with one exception. In melee, Red A has one base in front edge contact with whichever green base wants to count as the 'front rank' base. It has another base in front edge contact with whichever green base wants to count as the second rank base. So both these bases meet the requirement in the rules that "All bases whose front edge is in contact with enemy fight." And their rear ranks will also fight.

That's how the rules are written. Of course, I can't tell you if that is the authors' intent or not.

So what about all units fight as if they conformed on page 86 ?

so you "should" have only one base to one base with others in ovelap but being unable to dice due to orb. Seems like the intent is clear and I don't see what you are saying over-riding the two other sections.

iversonjm · Post by **iversonjm** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 8:59 pm

grahambriggs wrote:I agree with you with one exception. In melee, Red A has one base in front edge contact with whichever green base wants to count as the 'front rank' base. It has another base in front edge contact with whichever green base wants to count as the second rank base. So both these bases meet the requirement in the rules that "All bases whose front edge is in contact with enemy fight." And their rear ranks will also fight.

That's how the rules are written. Of course, I can't tell you if that is the authors' intent or not.

Out of curiousity, how do we know that red has "another base in front edge contact with whichever green base wants to count as the second rank base"? In the example, green has 4 bases that are fighting and 4 that are not. Why isn't the second red base actually in contact with a base that isn't fighting at all? Who gets to choose? Not sure this matters in the end given the language of the melee rule, but it might if the table location of the bases within the orb was intended to be notional, i.e. the bases are really where they appear to be.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 9:01 pm

iversonjm wrote: Out of curiousity, how do we know that red has "another base in front edge contact with whichever green base wants to count as the second rank base"? In the example, green has 4 bases that are fighting and 4 that are not. Why isn't the second red base actually in contact with a base that isn't fighting at all? Who gets to choose? Not sure this matters in the end given the language of the melee rule, but it might if the table location of the bases within the orb was intended to be notional, i.e. the bases are really where they appear to be.

There are rules that specify who gets to choose which base counts in general.

berthier · Post by **berthier** » Tue Dec 13, 2011 10:53 pm

That what I was attempting to show with my diagram that I will repeat below. The physical space of the bases prevent this from happening in practice but based on the way the rules are written on p. 122, this it what in effect is happening.

AAAA
AAAA
...G
...G
GGGGBB
...G....BB
...G

After A conforms to G per p. 86 we have two bases facing A and two bases facing B with only one of each acting as a front rank base. Only one front rank base of A is in front edge contact with G while two other front bases of A acting as overlaps which don't count vs orbs.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:58 am

Orb is all round defence, a circle, square or triangle even. Bits don't stick out, they'd get hurt.

Anyway, equal numbers fighting in impact means:

A has 2 dice at ++ v Green 2 dice at --

B gets two dice at even, v Green 2 dice at even.

Melee is bases in contact

A gets 4 dice at -, v Green 2 at plus
B 2 dice at plus, v Green 2 at minus

If disrupted green must lose a dice, and can chose against whom. A would move to even POA and B to ++

So its much better to form orb with smaller BG as they can get more dice than bases, larger BG have more bases than dice in most circumstances

bahdahbum · Post by **bahdahbum** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 10:54 am

And how does A get 4 dice versus 2 if there is no overlap .....as you cannot overlap an orb

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 11:27 am

They are not overlapping, they are in contact and conformed

domblas · Post by **domblas** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:29 pm

philqw78 wrote:They are not overlapping, they are in contact and conformed

i disagree
in melee everybody have 2 dices, the way the bases are placed isn't important in a battle with an orb formation. It is just than rectangular bases can't reproduce an orb formation so we put them that way. it is a symbolic representation. We should only folllow the text: same number of bases fighting, no overlaps, so every body gets 2 dices in each battles.
Berthier is right, Phil not... to my understanding.
HappyXmas
Edward from septimania

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 12:49 pm

domblas wrote:Berthier is right, Phil not... to my understanding.

My quiz so I'm right!

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:20 pm

domblas wrote:
philqw78 wrote:They are not overlapping, they are in contact and conformed
i disagree
in melee everybody have 2 dices, the way the bases are placed isn't important in a battle with an orb formation. It is just than rectangular bases can't reproduce an orb formation so we put them that way. it is a symbolic representation. We should only folllow the text: same number of bases fighting, no overlaps, so every body gets 2 dices in each battles.
Berthier is right, Phil not... to my understanding.
HappyXmas
Edward from septimania

Happy Xmas Edward but I think you are wrong my friend

The Orb rules are very clear on how to represent the formation: two bases wide, with at least half the ranks facing to the rear.

I think the issue is here that the authors may have intended Orbs to always fight with the same number of bases as their opponents but they did not write the rules that way.

And people read the part about "no overlaps" and think that means "so, equal numbers". But the rules don't actually say that. The orb rules tell you how many bases the orb fights with, and says no overlaps. But the one thing that the orb rules don't say is how many bases the enemy of the orb get. So you have to look in the Close Combat section. And that tells you very clearly. Unfortunately, it's not what you expect.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 3:38 pm

A point from a game point of view. If it was always one base v one base when fighting orb the fight would never. The number of dice used is so low as to make base and cohesion loss very, very rare.

bbotus · Post by **bbotus** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 4:33 pm

philqw78 wrote:A point from a game point of view. If it was always one base v one base when fighting orb the fight would never. The number of dice used is so low as to make base and cohesion loss very, very rare.

Kind of the whole point of going into orb (or trying to go into orb). It is definitely a defensive and not an offensive formation. The orb gives up its offensive POA for spears/pikes but gets even dice with no overlaps. No matter how it is worded, the 4 to 2 dice argument gives one side the overlap.

I wonder what the FOG Moderators think and, also, how has it been handled in the large conventions?

berthier · Post by **berthier** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 5:49 pm

I cannot recall it having come up in the Gulf Coast Championship Circuit because Orb is so rare, but I suspect I know how most referees (myself included) in the GCC would rule.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:43 pm

grahambriggs wrote: The orb rules tell you how many bases the orb fights with, and says no overlaps. But the one thing that the orb rules don't say is how many bases the enemy of the orb get. So you have to look in the Close Combat section. And that tells you very clearly. Unfortunately, it's not what you expect.

Can you look at the rules for unequal bases. As I think that applies here.

Let's say you have a 2 base Triari, 2 deep.

I hit you with the joint between the center bases of a 4 bases of knights in a line. Nothing happens at impact and I cannot conform for some reason.

By your logic I have 2 bases touching you each getting 2 dice in contact and combat, plus the overlaps giving me 8 dice.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Dec 14, 2011 7:48 pm

But they would fight as if conformed.

If I had 2 normal BG that hit the triarii, one in flank first then one in front it would be 2v2 flank and 2v1* front in impact and 8 dice v 2 in melee.
So where's the problem.?
Strangely you Americans are sticking up for the little guy instead of picking on him. You give an 8 bases BG a frontage of only 4 fighting bases when contacted on ALL sides. Where's the logic in that?

*not 2 dice due to disruption