To see or not to see, is that the question?

[enric]

Pip, I made some test about the LOS and the LOF, my intention is to help to improve in the behavior of an already good game, no a criticism.

Matilda on ground level can not see on the hill (logical?), maybe more logical would be to see the first tiles of the hill, first image.
But voilà, now the same Matilda can see over the hill because other friendly unit is seeing them, (illogical), second image.

Another Matilda, in slope, can't see on the hill (logical?) it should be able to see the immediately tile, no?, first image.
But now it can! (illogical), second image.

Unit in a hill can see over slope far away on the same hill, but even below the cliff (illogical).

LOS should be calculated by a physical logical procedure, from tile X to tile Y is, or not, a LOS. And if it is, then always it is.
This doesn’t has to deal with if a unit in one of these tiles are spotted by other in the other tile (LOF).
Matilda has a LOS on the rough ground in front, but not LOF because the unit here is not spotted:


Once spotted it has also LOF.


This is logical, and happen on forest, buildings, etc. But the dealing with slopes doesn’t seems to follow a logical procedure.
What do you think?

[Merr]

But the dealing with slopes doesn’t seems to follow a logical procedure.
What do you think?

Yes ..... The diagonal LOS between a HILL tile and a STRAIGHT slope is broken ... Note in my screenshot test ...

EDIT ... This occurs using the hill configuration shown below when the unit is at that location. The HILL/Straight slope diaganol error doesn't happen if the unit was adjacent to all 4 straight slopes (ie, a one tile hill surrounded by slopes).

[enric]

Merr, and what do you think about tiles than you can't see, but if a another frienly unit has saw then you see them?.

[Merr]

Merr, and what do you think about tiles than you can't see, but if a another frienly unit has saw then you see them?.

Look at my screenshot ..... My selected unit can't trace an LOS to those tiles at the diagonal (up/left,up/right,down/left,down/right) but the other units can see the tiles above the unit. I haven't seen a problem where one unit can't trace an LOS and then suddenely it can just because another unit could trace an LOS to the same tile.

Now, when you use the word "see" ... Do you mean ;
(1) Trace an LOS ... or
(2) Reveal the tile and the unit on the tile?

- Merr

[enric]

Code: Select all

(1) Trace an LOS ... or 
(2) Reveal the tile and the unit on the tile? 

LOS is line of see,
LOF is line of fire,

In my opinion, LOS should be calculated by a physical logical procedure, from tile X to tile Y is, or not, a LOS. And if it is, then always it is.
This doesn’t has to deal with if a unit in one of these tiles are spotted by other in the other tile (LOF).

I think in BA those two concepts are melted because (the my first example I sent) if a unit climbs a hill and immediately descends and stay in the ground or in the slope level, from here is capable of see all the hill !. But at start of next turn it loses that vision.
This happen even if it's another friendly unit which sees in the hill.

[enric]

Look at my screenshot ..... My selected unit can't trace an LOS to those tiles at the diagonal (up/left,up/right,down/left,down/right) but the other units can see the tiles above the unit. I haven't seen a problem where one unit can't trace an LOS and then suddenely it can just because another unit could trace an LOS to the same tile.

I'm going to try it, as I don't understand when you say "but the other units can see the tiles above the unit.".

[Merr]

Hill's are just being represented by an abstraction of the LOS rules. There needs to be crests which govern LOS so if a unit is on a hilltop tile, the adjacent hilltop tile (crest) that lies next to a slope will block LOS to lower tiles.

So, really, it only needs a tile to be indentified at such, then distance comparisions between the two tiles checked for LOS.

Many board games use a simple LOS system ... ASL is quite simple.

[junk2drive]

One of my major dislikes of BA is only having two height levels. To break up long range maps you have to use hills, blocking trees, or hedge/bocage. The rules for seeing through bocage is goofy to me. What goes on with units on hills and below them adds to the confusion.

[enric]

Hill's are just being represented by an abstraction of the LOS rules. There needs to be crests which govern LOS so if a unit is on a hilltop tile, the adjacent hilltop tile (crest) that lies next to a slope will block LOS to lower tiles.

So, really, it only needs a tile to be indentified at such, then distance comparisions between the two tiles checked for LOS.

Many board games use a simple LOS system ... ASL is quite simple.

I don't have played ASL, but a lot the original SL, and its expansions COI.., I remember we checked the LOS with a thread from center to center of the hex.
The tactical computer game where LOS was calculated more accurate, in my opinion, is Steel Panther Worlds at War. The game now, has many problems with interface, graphics, but its core is great.
I think things like a trust system of LOS, LOF, makes the difference between a tactical simulation game or just a game.

[Obsolete]

Well these are interesting issues. And is just a reminder to me how much I have forgot over the last year.

A lot of the basics I still need to relearn, for example why some units right infront of me can move onto a hill and suddenly are in FoW, but other times I can see them no matter how far back they flee on a hill. I guess some of it may be partially related.

[enric]

Well these are interesting issues. And is just a reminder to me how much I have forgot over the last year.

A lot of the basics I still need to relearn, for example why some units right infront of me can move onto a hill and suddenly are in FoW, but other times I can see them no matter how far back they flee on a hill. I guess some of it may be partially related.

I think it's I described as the first problem in LOS.
If one friendly unit has, or have had LOS over the hill your unit in ground have LOS on the hill, and this is cancelled at the beginning of the next turn.

I tried the following: put some tanks in range of fire to a hill, then move a vehicle up the hill an immediately go down the hill. All tanks have now a LOS to the hills squares. But no to squares of another hill were nobody as climbed.

See the example, Matilda can see on the hill on his back but not to the adjacent hill.