Christmas Quiz 3

[hazelbark]

"To step forward after initial contact, slide any files of your battle group not yet in contact straight forward until the front base makes contact with enemy bases, subject to the following conditions:
 No bases can be stepped forward more than 2MUs from the original line of contact.
 Every stepped forward front rank base must end in contact with an enemy."

It kind of depends what you mean by "any". If you mean 'all of them that aren't in contact with the enemy' you could argue that no step forward occurs here. As the centre two bases hit no-one, which breaks the second bullet.

I think this is an intersting point.
Four bases in a line

1234

1 contacts. usually 4 doesn't step forward if 2 nd 3 hit air. Because they often need to slide slightly to permit 4 to contact. So people get in the habit of disallowing 4 be the only base to step forward, but as you write clearly it is permissable assuming 2 and 3 don't step.

I don't think i have encountered this, or if I did it was resolved without acrimony or consultations. Thank you for this chrismas present. are there 9 more coming so we get all 12?

[zoltan]

So the answer is:

C must stand still as it is a target of reds charge due to compulsory step forward of reds right hand base.
B may opt to intercept because the line of contact due to the step forward allows its 4MU to cross the charge path.
A now evades
Red does not roll a VMD as not all its targets have evaded, C stood. But it does not contact anyone either as it now cannot reach either C or B.

This seems a load of bollocks when you go back and read the original teaser.

At the time red declares its charge, neither B nor C are targets as they are outside 4 MUs. The only way C can become a target is if red has a reason to VMD and throws up.

You said the LH was going to evade - so where does the stepping forward business come from? If LH evades, red will VMD and may/not careen into C.

[bbotus]

You said the LH was going to evade - so where does the stepping forward business come from? If LH evades, red will VMD and may/not careen into C.

Go to page 63, 4th bullet. This paragraph precludes C from intercepting. This and page 52, Declaration of Charges, paragraph 2, establishes the charge move for interception purposes which therefore allows B to intercept. And since C is a valid target of the charge and will not evade, Red cannot roll a VMD since all targets of the charge did not evade (FAQ v5.01, #4, vii). Also, interception moves come before evade moves. Intent to evade doesn't really matter.

I follow the reasoning but it isn't very satisfactory as I said in my earlier post. I, too, would like to see Red roll a VMD. It just isn't what the RAW says. I'm sure grahambriggs could make a compelling argument to allow Red a VMD. This is just another thing that needs to be a little more specific in the rules.

I'd be interested to know why the authors decided not to let C intercept, which is what really is causing this idiosyncrasy.

[philqw78]

At the time red declares its charge, neither B nor C are targets as they are outside 4 MUs. The only way C can become a target is if red has a reason to VMD and throws up.

C is a target of the charge as soon as the charge is declared since step forward is compulsory and C would be stepped forwards into. A evading is irrelevant to this as A could stand and whether it will or won't is not known at declaration and does not come into effect until after intercepts.

This seems a load of bollocks when you go back and read the original teaser.

It really is quite odd. Which is why I asked it. I've never seen it happen.

There are a number of things causing the idiosyncracy, starting with the compulsory step forwards. I assume charge targets can't intercept to keep things simple and stop them intercepting something else, which may get them out of the way of something harder charging them ad infinitum.

Imagine


A
|
|
|
B____C

A is facing down; B is facing right; C is facing down 4 MU from B.
C declares a charge on a target down the page, say the 'c' of 'facing'. A declares a charge on B, but B intercepts C. Intercepts move before charges, so instead of B getting flank charged C does.

[zoltan]

How is C a valid target of red's charge if C is over 4 MUs from red at the point of charge declaration?

For red to be able step forward it must first have made contact with something. Which enemy will red contact that enables it to step forward into a second enemy?

[grahambriggs]

"To step forward after initial contact, slide any files of your battle group not yet in contact straight forward until the front base makes contact with enemy bases, subject to the following conditions:
 No bases can be stepped forward more than 2MUs from the original line of contact.
 Every stepped forward front rank base must end in contact with an enemy."

It kind of depends what you mean by "any". If you mean 'all of them that aren't in contact with the enemy' you could argue that no step forward occurs here. As the centre two bases hit no-one, which breaks the second bullet.

I think this is an intersting point.
Four bases in a line

1234

1 contacts. usually 4 doesn't step forward if 2 nd 3 hit air. Because they often need to slide slightly to permit 4 to contact. So people get in the habit of disallowing 4 be the only base to step forward, but as you write clearly it is permissable assuming 2 and 3 don't step.

I don't think i have encountered this, or if I did it was resolved without acrimony or consultations. Thank you for this chrismas present. are there 9 more coming so we get all 12?

What I meant Dan was the opposite of your conclusion. It would be reasonable for a player to go through the following logic:

I've charge
I've hit a target with one file.
Are any filesnot yet in contact?
Yes, three of them.
Right, so I have to slide those forward up to 2MU until the front base makes contact....
Oh. Only one of the three makes contact.
But it says ALL of the front rank bases must make contact.
So I can't step forward at all, not even with the one base that would contact.

It's not how it is played, but it would be hard to argue against it.

[grahambriggs]

How is C a valid target of red's charge if C is over 4 MUs from red at the point of charge declaration?

For red to be able step forward it must first have made contact with something. Which enemy will red contact that enables it to step forward into a second enemy?

The Declaration of Charges section clarifies that aspect:

"Any enemy battle group in the path of a charge counts as being charged if it can be „legally‟ contacted, even if it was not one of the originally declared targets of the charge. This applies even if it can only be contacted by bases stepping forward"

So it makes it quite clear that if a step forward would hit C, then it is the target of the charge.

And it's also clear that in such circumstances c can't intercept. As the interception section says:

"A battle group that is itself charged cannot intercept. This applies even if a charge was not declared on it, if it is in the path of a charge and would be contacted (including by bases stepping forward) if no friendly battle group evaded."

The precise wording suggests that the authors were aware that this might happen.

[zoltan]

The first sentence of the Charging into Contact and Stepping Forward section on page 54 requires that a legal contact first be made (with an enemy BG) before stepping forward occurs. If the charger has not made legal contact (with an enemy BG) it does not step forward to get more bases into contact than the number of bases already in legal contact. Stepping forward is something that is predicated on legal contact having already been made.

As the LH chose to evade the red knights will not contact them and therefore do not get an option to exercise a step forward into C. Thus C is not a target of red's charge because will not be stepping forward into C. Red won't be doing any stepping forward as it has not contacted anyone.

Of course red may end up charging (not stepping forward) into C if its VMD for chasing the LH is plus.

[grahambriggs]

I think you need to look at the sequence of play zoltan. Declare charges comes before interception charges which comes before evades. At the point of charge declaration, C does not know whether the LH will evade or not

And there is a specific rule in the interception charges section that I quoted which effectively says you see what would happen if nobody evades and if that means C would be contacted by the step forward then it can't intercept charge.

[grahambriggs]

C is a target of the charge as soon as the charge is declared since step forward is compulsory and C would be stepped forwards into. A evading is irrelevant to this as A could stand and whether it will or won't is not known at declaration and does not come into effect until after intercepts.

This seems a load of bollocks when you go back and read the original teaser.

It really is quite odd. Which is why I asked it. I've never seen it happen.

You could have made it weirder Phil. Having re-read the intercept rules, there's a situation where another green BG is in a position to wheel and hit the flank of red but a straight ahead charge would strike the front right corner of red with it's front edge.

You could claim that this cancells the charge of red because the rule says "Contact the flank or rear of the enemy battle group." rather than "Contact the flank or rear edge of the enemy battle group." It might even be that there would be no contact with red's edge at all if the BGs are in just the right place but the rules still say it is "treated as a normal flank/rear charge".

I might just save that one for when I play Ruddock.

[philqw78]

Every stepped forward front rank base must end in contact with an enemy."

But it says ALL of the front rank bases must make contact.
So I can't step forward at all, not even with the one base that would contact.

It says bases that step forward must contact. Not that all bases must step forward. So the middle of a line could stap or just one end, or all, providing they contact.

This is a legal and compulsory step forward by a BG of 6 knight bases

[philqw78]

You could have made it weirder Phil. Having re-read the intercept rules, there's a situation where another green BG is in a position to wheel and hit the flank of red but a straight ahead charge would strike the front right corner of red with it's front edge.

You could claim that this cancells the charge of red

No because if the interceptor would be contacted in flank it must wheel

[grahambriggs]

You could have made it weirder Phil. Having re-read the intercept rules, there's a situation where another green BG is in a position to wheel and hit the flank of red but a straight ahead charge would strike the front right corner of red with it's front edge.

You could claim that this cancells the charge of red

No because if the interceptor would be contacted in flank it must wheel

Not what i nmeant and i can't do the diagram thingy

[philqw78]

Also, unless a legel flank or rear charge, the interceptor cannot contact the charger, it moves into the path of the charge, so cannot cancel it.

[grahambriggs]

Every stepped forward front rank base must end in contact with an enemy."

But it says ALL of the front rank bases must make contact.
So I can't step forward at all, not even with the one base that would contact.

It says bases that step forward must contact. Not that all bases must step forward. So the middle of a line could stap or just one end, or all, providing they contact.

This is a legal and compulsory step forward by a BG of 6 knight bases

But it also says "slide any files of your battle group not yet in contact straight forward " You haven't done that in this diagram.

[grahambriggs]

Also, unless a legel flank or rear charge, the interceptor cannot contact the charger, it moves into the path of the charge, so cannot cancel it.

That isn't what the rule says though. It says:

"Contact the flank or rear of the enemy battle group. This is only permitted if the intercepting battle group started in a position to charge the flank or rear of the enemy battle group"

So it needs two things (ignoring rears for now):

- My intercepting BG is in a position to charge the flank.

and

- the intercept contacts the flank.

It doesn't say the flank edge, just the flank. So you could claim the front/flank corner is part of "the flank"

So let's say my BG is in a position where if I charge straight forward, I'll hit your front/flank corner. But I also fulfill the requirements to mount a flank charge (not to your front, one base behind the line etc). Not uncommon.

You declare a charge,. I declare an intercept straight forwards. The rules as written say this is a flank intercept charge because it has contacted your flank even if that is only the flank corner. So your charge is cancelled, mine counts as a flank charge, etc. It might be that another base of mine hits your flank edge, it might not.

You could even suggest this is deliberate by the authors, to represent simutaneous events.

[philqw78]

So that would be a flank charge then.

[hazelbark]

What I meant Dan was the opposite of your conclusion. It would be reasonable for a player to go through the following logic:

I've charge
I've hit a target with one file.
Are any filesnot yet in contact?
Yes, three of them.
Right, so I have to slide those forward up to 2MU until the front base makes contact....
Oh. Only one of the three makes contact.
But it says ALL of the front rank bases must make contact.
So I can't step forward at all, not even with the one base that would contact.

It's not how it is played, but it would be hard to argue against it.

I am not certain that is "not how it is played" or has been played in some games by accident. I think the problem with what I am quoting from you here is on pages 54-55 I do not see the word "ALL". "All" is mentioned in the diagram on page 56, but it is not refering to a rule but what you are seeing. What am I missing?

[hazelbark]

But it also says "slide any files of your battle group not yet in contact straight forward " You haven't done that in this diagram.

You left out the rest of the sentence "...until the front base makes contact with enemy bases, subject to the following conditions:"
2nd bullet
"Every stepped forward front rank base must end in contact with an enemy"

[zoltan]

I think you need to look at the sequence of play zoltan. Declare charges comes before interception charges which comes before evades. At the point of charge declaration, C does not know whether the LH will evade or not

Well, Phil said in the OP that the LH was going to evade. Perhaps this was just a red herring from him.

And there is a specific rule in the interception charges section that I quoted which effectively says you see what would happen if nobody evades and if that means C would be contacted by the step forward then it can't intercept charge.

So you are referring to bullet point 4, left column, page 63. This appears to imply that for the purposes of determining whether or not an enemy BG can intercept, the charging BG is considered to have a charge move that is 2 MUs greater than its "normal" charge move. i.e. in the case of the red knights they are considered to have a 6 MU charge move for the purpose of neutralising enemy intercepts.