Les's anti AI complaints rant thread :)

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lesthesarge
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Les's anti AI complaints rant thread :)

Post by lesthesarge »

There are indeed rants out in cyberspace about the Commander AI.

It's not too numerous a complaint that I have seen so far though (that's based on MY observations eh).

Anyways, lets look at this complaint source the way "I" see it.

What exactly is Commander to you the gamer?

If I am to answer my own question, here is how I would answer.

Commander is a game that emulates the board game experience obviously. This is apparent immediately.
Board games have always had several qualities that have remained, simply because it is what the buyer wanted.

Now, we have established that I think Commander is a computer game, that delivers a board game experience.
How well does it play as a board game emulator? Personally, I think it emulates a board game amazingly well.

Board games, what are common qualities of board games? Well for one thing, they have turns. Specific, distinguishable turns. And don't go getting all in a snit that life doesn't have turns. Look at your calendar, notice the turns? They are called days and weeks. Guess what sunshine, life has turns. Look at your clock, hey seconds, minutes, hours, more of those supposedly non existent turns. Thus, a board game forcing turns onto a game is not a tragedy. And I prefer turns.

Board games are flat. They are not 3d they are flat. They have maps with hexes on them in a great many cases. The terrain is viewed by looking at it from above. So, it should not shock anyone that a computer game, trying to look like a board game, actually is 2d and viewed from above with a hex grid superimposed on the terrain.

And now the AI part. How many board games, give you an AI? Answer, none. Even if the design is solitaire, YOU will be making all the artificial opposition moves. So, is it a tragedy to not have an AI in a computer game that wants to be a board game? Nope. And considering that playing board games solo is something that wargamers have done for years, I don't see it being an aberration to require it in a computer game intent on being a board game.

But, because computers are wonderful powerful computational tools, we have allowed ourselves to get suckered into being spoiled and demand an AI be present. But the key here, is a computer is just a powerful adding machine. It is NOT thinking, it's just doing a great deal of math VERY fast. Even the most slow thinking dimwit is likely smarter than the most powerful computer. Because speed is not a measure of thought.

So we have all these games, that have AIs and we rant on about how they "suck" in varying sums, and the truth is, the idiot is the human that thinks his computer is actually thinking. Maybe someday buddy, during your son's middle age, but not today.

Yes the AI in Commander is not "brilliant". Why are you shocked though? Are you silly enough to think it has a thinking AI? Nope, it likely has a calculator that has a better adding program than some, might not be as good as others in some ways. But it isn't thinking, and no patch is going to make it think either.

It will remain what it is, and stop whining when your organic brain can do what you call the obvious, but the AI can't.

I do NOT require an AI when I am ready for a stiff challenge. I will play the AI gladly though if I am bored and just want to fiddle with a wargame. As wargames go, the AI is not bad. But it's just a wargame AI, and if you can't actually beat it, you might want to keep that embarassment to yourself :)

Commander has the option to play human vs human. Get off your butt and locate an opponent if you want your money's worth with Commander. Hey, there's like 6+ billion humans on this rock, don't tell me you can't find one to play against.
syagrius
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Post by syagrius »

As it is now the AI in CEaW is very far from bad. In comparison to HoI I would say the AI is very good. It just need some tweaking, like being more active in the Med and Africa and some other minor stuff.
sagji
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Post by sagji »

syagrius wrote:As it is now the AI in CEaW is very far from bad. In comparison to HoI I would say the AI is very good. It just need some tweaking, like being more active in the Med and Africa and some other minor stuff.
Like the ability to cross rivers - in my current game the Axis keep forcing Russian units to retreat from the river by Odessa, but never follow up into the hex, or move another unit in, so next turn they have to attack accross the river again.
ungers_pride
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Post by ungers_pride »

Les:

I agree with you to a certain extent - nothing will ever beat playing a human opponent.

However, in this day and age, gamers (including myself) prefer to play the AI: it's always available, it won't throw a tantrum if its losing, it's cold and calculating (you can't rattle or scare it), and it's getting better. Plus, I like to play at my leisure. Playing a game should be fun; not a chore. Other players expecting to receive turns, means turning a game into a form of work pressure.

From what I have read on various forums, the AI is actually pretty good in CEaW. I think the AI setting is just too passive - it needs to be more aggressive in Med/North Africa, and have bugs fixed.

The game also needs a good scenario/unit/tech editor. From my experiences many deficiencies in a game AI can be fixed through editors to give humans a tough challenge.
Last edited by ungers_pride on Thu Jun 28, 2007 2:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
Redpossum
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Post by Redpossum »

As one of the guys from Holistic Software said years ago, in an essay I can no longer find, computer games do not have an AI, or artificial intelligence.

True AI is years (decades, centuries, millenia, who knows?) in the future, as the OP noted above.

What computer games have, and indeed all they need or want, is an AO, or artificial opponent. And this is a horse of a very different color :)
firepowerjohan
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Post by firepowerjohan »

AI using advance after combat is not an easy thing because sometimes advancing means you gonna block that hex from your others unit to follow up and sometimes a follow up means you get isolated and can get easier countered or surrounded next turn. We decided, for now, AI only advance after combat when it can capture something instead.
Johan Persson - Firepower Entertainment
Lead Developer of CEAW, CNAW and World Empires Live (http://www.worldempireslive.com)
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