Is this a legal charge

titanu · Post by **titanu** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:24 am

The game was Han v Hungarian. The Chinese battle group half wheeled across has declared a charge on the light horse to its front. When the LH evades the Chinese charge will contact the 2nd rank base of the cavalry already in combat to their front. This is not allowed as you may not contact 2nd rank bases already in combat - see FAQs.
I said that for that reason it was not a legal charge and should be cancelled am I correct or is there a chink in my arguement?

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:30 am

Yellow card for the pun Bob

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 7:54 am

Normally I would say.

The charge cannot contact the Cavalry as they are not a legal target. Since the LH have evaded it cannot be cancelled either. The rules are missing bits here. I would stop the foot just short if I was umpire.

However, this looks like a legal flank charge and if it is they could charge and conatact the cavalry in flank

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:17 am

Unless the rear rank of XBow is where the BG is supposed to be at outset.
Then its obviously not a legal flank charge. In which case I would (having thought a bit more) either stop the chargers just short or allow the charger to wheel so that he didn't hit the BG.
He'd have to roll VMD all legal targets having evaded.

titanu · Post by **titanu** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:38 am

philqw78 wrote:Unless the rear rank of XBow is where the BG is supposed to be at outset.
Then its obviously not a legal flank charge. In which case I would (having thought a bit more) either stop the chargers just short or allow the charger to wheel so that he didn't hit the BG.
He'd have to roll VMD all legal targets having evaded.

No the rear rank should be behind the front rank and hence the cav are directly in front of the unit but it is not a flank charge. I took the pic when it was proposed that the charge would take place the next move.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:47 am

Looks like a flank charge as there is more than one base behind the flank. But if not its not legal to charge the Cavalry but is legal to charge the LH. So must* wheel to avoid the cavalry if charging the LH.

*after even more thought.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:49 am

There is no problem with the MF declaring a charge on the LH. The fact that the MF may pursue towrds another BG that they are not entitled to legally contact does not cancel their legal charge on the LH. If necessary, the MF would simply have to avoid pursuing into a fresh BG they are not entitled to contact, either by wheeling, dropping back (if allowed) or stopping short.

But as Phil points out, it looks like the MF have a flank charge on the cav which permits them to legally contact the second rank cav base.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:57 am

I suspect the charge would be cancelled. The relevant bit of the rules seems to be:

"A battle group cannot be contracted to avoid hitting enemy who would otherwise be in the path of its charge. No turns or expansions are permitted. If, owing to this, contact is not possible, the charge cannot be made and is cancelled."

Contact is not possible, as the flank charge rules say you can't contact the cavalry.

Of course there's the issue of if a VMD roll is made is the charge cancelled if they roll short?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:02 am

grahambriggs wrote:I suspect the charge would be cancelled. The relevant bit of the rules seems to be:

"A battle group cannot be contracted to avoid hitting enemy who would otherwise be in the path of its charge. No turns or expansions are permitted. If, owing to this, contact is not possible, the charge cannot be made and is cancelled."

They could wheel to avoid hitting them, and would have to if they were to charge and it wasn't a flank charge on the cavalry

Contact is not possible, as the flank charge rules say you can't contact the cavalry.

Where. If its a flank (or rear) charge this is where you specifically can contact a first or second rank fighting base

Of course there's the issue of if a VMD roll is made is the charge cancelled if they roll short?

the best way would be to declare the wheel at declaration, unless it is a flank charge.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 10:12 am

It's obviously not a flank charge, that's why in the picture the back rank is where it is - the front rank seem to be part way through the charge. It's not a flank charge hence "A charge which does not qualify as a flank or rear charge can still contact the flank edge of an enemy base, provided that it was not already in melee to its front" applies. The base is in melee to it's front, so can't be contacted on the flank edge.

I agree that if you want to charge, you could wheel less and just charge the LH.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:57 am

Read the whole thread Graham. The position of the front rank is the position of the BG at time of charge. The phote was taken during previous movement.

Bob wrote:No the rear rank should be behind the front rank and hence the cav are directly in front of the unit but it is not a flank charge. I took the pic when it was proposed that the charge would take place the next move.

Though Bob didn't reckon it was a flank charge, strangely.

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 12:27 pm

titanu wrote:No the rear rank should be behind the front rank and hence the cav are directly in front of the unit but it is not a flank charge. I took the pic when it was proposed that the charge would take place the next move.

From the picture it definitely is a flank charge. The furthest forward charging base is way behind the front edge of the cavalry. So the charge is allowed, and if the LH evade, the charge hits the cavalry in the flank and drops them a level.

Why don't you think it is a flank charge ?

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:21 pm

It wasn't a flank charge. I moved the front rank to indicate the direction of charge.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:38 pm

So the picture is nothing at all like what it really looked like then just to confuse the issue more after Bob saying thats the position they were going to be in

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 1:42 pm

So basically this is another Ruddock-Amey game where neither know what is going on. No change there then ...

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 3:54 pm

dave_r wrote:It wasn't a flank charge. I moved the front rank to indicate the direction of charge.

In that case it looks unlikely that the charging BG would have enough movement to contact the cavalry (since the wheel looks about 3MU) so unless they roll a 6 on the VMD the whole question is moot.

titanu · Post by **titanu** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 4:54 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:So basically this is another Ruddock-Amey game where neither know what is going on. No change there then ...

I resent that I know exactly what is going on I provided the lager and Dave the Sambuca. He moved his MF as LF and I moved my knights as cavalry. If there is a despute the Dave tells me what it says in the rules and I always beleve him!!

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 6:22 pm

So to recap:

1. The MF start from the position shown by the crossbow
2. They are permitted to declare a charge on the LH
3. They are permitted to wheel as part of that charge
4. Were they to declare a wheel that would place the cav in their path:
(a) if the cav are within the MF's "normal" move distance including allowing for the wheel, the charge would be cancelled because (not being a flank charge) the MF are not permitted to contact the cav second rank base.
(b) if the cav are not within the MF's "normal" move distance, the charge remains valid. If the MF throw an up VMD that would allow them to reach the cav, they must stop 1 MU short of the cav

Quite straightforward really.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 9:15 pm

zoltan wrote:So to recap:

1. The MF start from the position shown by the crossbow

No they didn't. They started sort of where the front rank were, but not quite.

OP wrote:No the rear rank should be behind the front rank and hence the cav are directly in front of the unit but it is not a flank charge. I took the pic when it was proposed that the charge would take place the next move.

gozerius · Post by **gozerius** » Thu Dec 01, 2011 11:02 pm

zoltan wrote:So to recap:

1. The MF start from the position shown by the crossbow
2. They are permitted to declare a charge on the LH
3. They are permitted to wheel as part of that charge
4. Were they to declare a wheel that would place the cav in their path:
(a) if the cav are within the MF's "normal" move distance including allowing for the wheel, the charge would be cancelled because (not being a flank charge) the MF are not permitted to contact the cav second rank base.
(b) if the cav are not within the MF's "normal" move distance, the charge remains valid. If the MF throw an up VMD that would allow them to reach the cav, they must stop 1 MU short of the cav

Quite straightforward really.

Not quite.
Once the charge has been declared and the target has opted to evade, the charger indicates the charge angle. (1-3 above)
4. The evading BG then chooses to evade directly away from the direction of charge or directly to his own rear. Rolls VMD and moves accordingly.
5. The charger now rolls a VMD since all its charge targets evaded. (The cav is not a legal charge target, even though it is in the path of the charger.)
6. The charger may wheel to follow the evader.
So depending on which way the LH evades, the charger could complete its move without hitting the cav by wheeling.
If the LH retires directly to its own rear, the charger can follow it by wheeling toward it, thereby avoiding the cav.
If the LH evades from the direction of the charge, the charger can wheel around the cav.