Ambush or rubbish?

titanu · Post by **titanu** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:38 am

In a game the other night I managed to wangle it so an opponants ambush was exposed from behind so there was nowhere for the bases to go and hence are lost. On discussing this with another opponant he 'vomited' this theory:

This is an ambush marker in a plantation.

My opponant then said the figures in ambush could be placed as above because the wording on ambushes being hidden from view only applied to the marker and NOT to the revealed troops. I poored scorn on this but was I correct?

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 9:58 am

I think your opponent was incorrect.

"Ambushes must not be visible from any part of the enemy deployment area for skirmishers (even if the enemy have no skirmishers). Battle groups can only ambush in terrain they could move in."

Makes it clear that the thing doing the ambush is a battle group.

If he cuts up rough, as him to show you the writing on the bottom of the ambush marker saying which BG is in ambush.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:39 am

Check the wording on ambush deployment.

elysiumsolutions@fsmail.n · Fri Nov 25, 2011 10:55 am

The way I understand it the Ambush marker must be placed in a position where all the troop types in the ambush would not be visible. e.g. if its in brush all the BGs must be LF. However, when the ambush is revealed (bottom of page 143) a single base is placed upon the ambush marker and the BGs in the ambush are then placed around this base in any legal formation with the constraint that "No base can be placed closer than the first base to any enemy battle group to which it would be visible".
Therefore, IMO your opponent was correct that troops in ambush can be placed out in the open as long as they are further from enemy than the base on the ambush marker.

Paul Longmore

peterrjohnston · Post by **peterrjohnston** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:01 am

elysiumsolutions@fsmail.n wrote: Therefore, IMO your opponent was correct that troops in ambush can be placed out in the open as long as they are further from enemy than the base on the ambush marker.

No, as Graham says, it's the ambush itself, not the marker. ""Ambushes must not be visible from any part of the enemy deployment area for skirmishers (even if the enemy have no skirmishers)."

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:08 am

philqw78 wrote:Check the wording on ambush deployment.

I did, and those indeed say that you have a great deal of freedom. indeed, you could deploy your BG partly off table if you just read that. Fortunately that's not the only rule in the ambush section, and the one I quoted says the ambush (not the ambush marker) must be unable to be seen from the enemy deployment area.

Of course, that might mean that some bases could deploy in open terrain, for example if behind a hill.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 11:30 am

I wasn't disagreeing with you Graham, just inciting argument

ShrubMiK · Post by **ShrubMiK** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:34 pm

>the Ambush marker must be placed in a position where all the troop types in the ambush would not be visible. e.g. if its in brush all the BGs must be LF.

Isn't it one BG per ambush marker? If not, I and all my opponents have been playing it wrong for the past several years!

peterrjohnston · Post by **peterrjohnston** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 1:48 pm

Yes, one per.

But a BG can be mixed - eg LF supports - so perhaps the wording is to avoid "lawyering-up".

ravenflight · Post by **ravenflight** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 2:35 pm

I'm a bit puzzled by the rule actually. It can be very easy to orchestrate so that an ambush can basically never be deployed other than in a column leading back to their base edge... especially one that is square on to the base edge.

Using the following as an example:

1' in->X<-5' in

One assumption: The enemy have 1BG in their deployment zone in each corner.

If the 'X' above is in ambush 1' in from the edge and 5' in from the other edge and square on to the base edge, the ONLY way the ambush could deploy would be directly backwards. With the above assumption, any other deployment would get 'closer' to both BG's in the corner. That's without them EVER moving. The ambush CANNOT deploy other than in a column going directly back to their base edge. The first base goes ON the X, all other bases must end up further away from the enemy. A base beside the first base on either side would get (although only marginally) closer to the enemy.

titanu · Post by **titanu** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:27 pm

ravenflight wrote:I'm a bit puzzled by the rule actually. It can be very easy to orchestrate so that an ambush can basically never be deployed other than in a column leading back to their base edge... especially one that is square on to the base edge....

Quite correct and if the attacker is clever he can move so the battle group is lost as it has nowhere to deploy.

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Fri Nov 25, 2011 3:57 pm

ravenflight wrote:I'm a bit puzzled by the rule actually. It can be very easy to orchestrate so that an ambush can basically never be deployed other than in a column leading back to their base edge... especially one that is square on to the base edge.

Using the following as an example:

1' in->X<-5' in

One assumption: The enemy have 1BG in their deployment zone in each corner.

If the 'X' above is in ambush 1' in from the edge and 5' in from the other edge and square on to the base edge, the ONLY way the ambush could deploy would be directly backwards. With the above assumption, any other deployment would get 'closer' to both BG's in the corner. That's without them EVER moving. The ambush CANNOT deploy other than in a column going directly back to their base edge. The first base goes ON the X, all other bases must end up further away from the enemy. A base beside the first base on either side would get (although only marginally) closer to the enemy.

You are not understanding the rules on deploying ambushes correctly. Subsequent bases cannot be placed closer to enemy BGs to which they are visible. You need to account for the visibility rules. Just because the BG is placed on the table does not mean it is visible to all enemy BGs.
To force deployment in column as you are suggesting, one BG needs to approach the ambush marker from one side and stop just outside visibility range, and another BG then comes within visibility range from the other side. If the first BG approaches from the rear, then the ambushing BG cannot deploy at all.

hazelbark · Post by **hazelbark** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 5:45 am

Polkovnik wrote:To force deployment in column as you are suggesting, one BG needs to approach the ambush marker from one side and stop just outside visibility range, and another BG then comes within visibility range from the other side. If the first BG approaches from the rear, then the ambushing BG cannot deploy at all.

IIRC there is also a rule that a player can choose to put out an ambush at any point* (*any point might be defined a little bit differently. no rules handy.) So if this started to happen a player can put out the unit and prevent it by revealing it.

Polkovnik · Post by **Polkovnik** » Sun Nov 27, 2011 9:47 pm

hazelbark wrote:
Polkovnik wrote:To force deployment in column as you are suggesting, one BG needs to approach the ambush marker from one side and stop just outside visibility range, and another BG then comes within visibility range from the other side. If the first BG approaches from the rear, then the ambushing BG cannot deploy at all.
IIRC there is also a rule that a player can choose to put out an ambush at any point* (*any point might be defined a little bit differently. no rules handy.) So if this started to happen a player can put out the unit and prevent it by revealing it.

You can choose to deploy the ambushing BG at any time in your own turn.