Instant comments on first read

[shall]

Perhaps some pacemaker type device that gives a mild electic shock at the end fo each bound would do it

Si

[doctormm]

Had my read through, so here are my thoughts, comments, questions:

(deep breath)

Why are the MU the same for 15s and 25s?

Target audience -
The rules seem to go out of their way to be friendly to noobs. I guess that makes sense, and would suggest adding some useful links or other "Getting Started in the Hobby" type stuff.

Why are there light and heavy artillery capabilities? Is that so wagons and elephants can have them?

The two bullets for Skirmishers in "Functional Categories" are inconsistent - why say "BG entirely of light foot" for one, but only "light horse" for the second?

The use of "battle groups" in this section is also a bit confusing - you can have a battle group of LF, but battle groups are any troops other than LF or LH.

Why must armies have a camp?

In Battle Group Quality, the first use of "battle line" should be in italics.

Mechanics - how do you "remember" that you're re-rolling a 2? The answer is obvious, but since the rules usually just say something like "quality rerolls apply" in the sequence, some suggestions would probably be useful.

How do you measure for a general joining a unit and/or being placed in the front rank? Does the general's move have to just touch the unit in question, and then he can be freely placed anywhere in the front rank, or does he actually have to reach such a point with his move?

If you have a battle-line, MUST it be treated as a battle line, or can individual BGs move off?

If a commander is with a BG when it takes a CMT he must remain with it for the entire move. Is there no flexibility for the commander (i.e., can he opt to NOT affect the CMT, and so retain the option of moving away)?

In Shifting, "this move" should be added to the end of the first sub-bullet in the second bullet (to make it clear that you can't shift sideways to avoid part of the terrain that you won't get to this turn).

Contractions says that you place contracting stands in THE rear rank. This sort of implies that you're limited in the number of elements that you can contract (i.e., you can't contract more than it would take to fill out the rear rank).

When evaders make multiple turns in their evade (due to encountering obstructions, for example), are turns after the first made using the same constraints as the initial turn (i.e., the initial turn has the old side edge becoming the REAR, not the front).

When do you announce charge reactions? Are ALL charges announced before ANY reactions, or are reactions to each charge announced as each charge is declared?

Deployment seems to be very shallow - you've only got ~10" for non-skirmishers. Not much room to set up a reserve, and the baggage will often get in the way,

My initial (pre first game) thoughts are that these are a well-written set of rules, that have put a great deal of thought into making clear some issues that are very poorly structured in other rules sets. At first blush they seem to be a very simple set of rules, with a fairly limited range of interactions available. Where the decision points will be in a game remain to be seen.

[shall]

Why are the MU the same for 15s and 25s?

Actually makes 25mm a different game rather than the same game on a bigger table or with less troops - 2 games for the price of 1.

Target audience -
The rules seem to go out of their way to be friendly to noobs. I guess that makes sense, and would suggest adding some useful links or other "Getting Started in the Hobby" type stuff.

It is indeed designed to attract new people to the hobby while giving a good game for the old pro at the same time

Why are there light and heavy artillery capabilities? Is that so wagons and elephants can have them?

No just a distinction on the range and impact of artillery weapons through the period - although there can be wagons with light artillery for a hussite say.

The two bullets for Skirmishers in "Functional Categories" are inconsistent - why say "BG entirely of light foot" for one, but only "light horse" for the second?

The use of "battle groups" in this section is also a bit confusing - you can have a battle group of LF, but battle groups are any troops other than LF or LH.

Ok thanks - to be clear a BG can be any type of troop and is usually comprised of all the same type. There are some mixed ones specified in the list - most commonly H or M foot with attached LF

Why must armies have a camp?

Because almost all did in reality. Even those renowned as foragers had more baggage than it first appeared when moving in large numbers.

In Battle Group Quality, the first use of "battle line" should be in italics.

Now that's detailed feedback - tx

Mechanics - how do you "remember" that you're re-rolling a 2? The answer is obvious, but since the rules usually just say something like "quality rerolls apply" in the sequence, some suggestions would probably be useful.

Everyone has found that pretty easy to figure out as you roll the dice

How do you measure for a general joining a unit and/or being placed in the front rank? Does the general's move have to just touch the unit in question, and then he can be freely placed anywhere in the front rank, or does he actually have to reach such a point with his move?

He has to move to the position that connects him to the unit as a "group". When going into the front rank put him to the nearest front rank point.

If you have a battle-line, MUST it be treated as a battle line, or can individual BGs move off?

You can split off whenever you want.

If a commander is with a BG when it takes a CMT he must remain with it for the entire move. Is there no flexibility for the commander (i.e., can he opt to NOT affect the CMT, and so retain the option of moving away)?

He can be left behind if you want - or just move him beforehand. But if he takes a CMT with the BG he goes with it.

In Shifting, "this move" should be added to the end of the first sub-bullet in the second bullet (to make it clear that you can't shift sideways to avoid part of the terrain that you won't get to this turn).

OK

Contractions says that you place contracting stands in THE rear rank. This sort of implies that you're limited in the number of elements that you can contract (i.e., you can't contract more than it would take to fill out the rear rank).

To form rear ranks I guess is better

When evaders make multiple turns in their evade (due to encountering obstructions, for example), are turns after the first made using the same constraints as the initial turn (i.e., the initial turn has the old side edge becoming the REAR, not the front).

There are non of these except if they hit impassible terrain or table edges. They turn 180 or 90 and its wheels, shifts and fall backs thereafter - if that isn't good enough you burst through and make a wee mess.

When do you announce charge reactions? Are ALL charges announced before ANY reactions, or are reactions to each charge announced as each charge is declared?

All charges declared first then actioned one at once with appropriate reactions. All fought thereafter. Order if it matters chosen by the active player.

Deployment seems to be very shallow - you've only got ~10" for non-skirmishers. Not much room to set up a reserve, and the baggage will often get in the way,

I assume you mean 25mm. Part of the different game philosophy. I have always found plenty of room for a reserve in practice. Note also baggage doesn't have to go on the table edge. So an Ottoman fortified camp with troop behind it can be deployed in these rules. A real Ottoman army and deployment.

My initial (pre first game) thoughts are that these are a well-written set of rules, that have put a great deal of thought into making clear some issues that are very poorly structured in other rules sets. At first blush they seem to be a very simple set of rules, with a fairly limited range of interactions available. Where the decision points will be in a game remain to be seen.

Have fun!!

[rbodleyscott]

If a commander is with a BG when it takes a CMT he must remain with it for the entire move. Is there no flexibility for the commander (i.e., can he opt to NOT affect the CMT, and so retain the option of moving away)?

The idea is to prevent people throwing the dice for a CMT, seeing they have scored enough not to need the general, then saying he was not helping them test. You know they would.

To avoid this, move him first.

Contractions says that you place contracting stands in THE rear rank. This sort of implies that you're limited in the number of elements that you can contract (i.e., you can't contract more than it would take to fill out the rear rank).

Once the rear rank is full, any further bases will be in the rear rank - a new rear rank.

There is a diagram that will make this crystal clear.

[hammy]

Contractions says that you place contracting stands in THE rear rank. This sort of implies that you're limited in the number of elements that you can contract (i.e., you can't contract more than it would take to fill out the rear rank).

Once the rear rank is full, any further bases will be in the rear rank - a new rear rank.

There is a diagram that will make this crystal clear.

I think the issue here is that a group 3 files wide and two ranks deep contracting by 2 files will gain 4 new rear RANKS. The implication of the use of "THE rear rank" could be taken to mean only one additional rank can be created when contracting.

Hammy

[rbodleyscott]

Contractions says that you place contracting stands in THE rear rank. This sort of implies that you're limited in the number of elements that you can contract (i.e., you can't contract more than it would take to fill out the rear rank).

Once the rear rank is full, any further bases will be in the rear rank - a new rear rank.

There is a diagram that will make this crystal clear.

I think the issue here is that a group 3 files wide and two ranks deep contracting by 2 files will gain 4 new rear RANKS. The implication of the use of "THE rear rank" could be taken to mean only one additional rank can be created when contracting.

Hammy

I take the point, but, even if we are being pedantic, each base will in fact be added the THE rear rank at the time it is added.

Let's not get hung up on this, the diagram in fact shows a 3 wide 2 deep BG contracting into a 6 deep column, which to my mind will resolve any possible dispute!

A more interesting discussion would be whether the present wording would prevent a Byzantine 1/2 DSp 1/2 bow BG from contracting

from

Code: Select all

SpSpSpSp
BwBwBwBw

to

Code: Select all

SpSp
SpSp
BwBw
BwBw

and if so, whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.

[shall]

A picture paints a thousand words....or so they say........

I am sure that the diagram can deal with the odd word or two technicallly needed to make the rules uninterpretable any other way. Of course you haven't seen these yet. The rules read very differently with them in.

We actually have a lot of diags going into the rules, so we can live with 99% pendantry rather than the 100% we would need with words alone. 6-+ IIRC.

Also I think all of us as authors are keen to encourage a modicum of common sense when interpreting the words.

Si

[doctormm]

Once the rear rank is full, any further bases will be in the rear rank - a new rear rank.

There is a diagram that will make this crystal clear.

I think the issue here is that a group 3 files wide and two ranks deep contracting by 2 files will gain 4 new rear RANKS. The implication of the use of "THE rear rank" could be taken to mean only one additional rank can be created when contracting.

Hammy

That's precisely what I was getting at. Thanks Hammy.

[rbodleyscott]

How about this then?

P.22 CONTRACTIONS

Contraction by a battle group that is not in close combat is carried out as follows: Remove one or two bases from the same or opposite ends of the front rank and place them in any other rank. Move bases not in the front rank to make the formation legal. To qualify as having advanced at least 3 MUs when contracting, both front corners of the final formation must have moved at least 3 MUs.

[hammy]

How about this then?

P.22 CONTRACTIONS

Contraction by a battle group that is not in close combat is carried out as follows: Remove one or two bases from the same or opposite ends of the front rank and place them in any other rank. Move bases not in the front rank to make the formation legal. To qualify as having advanced at least 3 MUs when contracting, both front corners of the final formation must have moved at least 3 MUs.

Is is intentional that heavy foot can never wheel and contract? This wording makes that the case. Other than that it seems clear enough to me.

Hammy

[rbodleyscott]

How about this then?

P.22 CONTRACTIONS

Contraction by a battle group that is not in close combat is carried out as follows: Remove one or two bases from the same or opposite ends of the front rank and place them in any other rank. Move bases not in the front rank to make the formation legal. To qualify as having advanced at least 3 MUs when contracting, both front corners of the final formation must have moved at least 3 MUs.

Is is intentional that heavy foot can never wheel and contract? This wording makes that the case. Other than that it seems clear enough to me.

Hammy

Undrilled heavy foot (and light artillery)? Yes.

[rogerg]

I may be a bit late with this one. However, for contracting in an advance, it would be much prettier to drop the arbitrary 3 MU and have: " ...advances so that no base ends up behind a line extending the original position of its rear edge."

Given that most BG's consist of bases of the same size, when using the above, such moves will amount to putting the measuring stick behind the rear edge of the BG to ensure nothing goes backwards. This is much easier than trying to measure a wheel and ensuring the inside corner moves 3 MU.

I presume the intention is to simulate a group moving off and the 'contractors' falling in behind. By insisting on 3 MU for each corner this prevents slow moving troops from wheeling and moving through a gap or following a road not directly ahead. I believe there might be problems with terrain slowing troops up as well.

[hammy]

How about this then?

P.22 CONTRACTIONS

Is is intentional that heavy foot can never wheel and contract? This wording makes that the case. Other than that it seems clear enough to me.

Hammy

Undrilled heavy foot (and light artillery)? Yes.

OK,

The 3 MU limit for both corners does actually remove some mild cheese as you can't contract a 4 wide BG to 2 wide then wheel full move on one corner to turn through a far greater angle.

Hammy

[olivier]

rbodleyscott wrote:
How about this then?

P.22 CONTRACTIONS


Contraction by a battle group that is not in close combat is carried out as follows: Remove one or two bases from the same or opposite ends of the front rank and place them in any other rank. Move bases not in the front rank to make the formation legal. To qualify as having advanced at least 3 MUs when contracting, both front corners of the final formation must have moved at least 3 MUs

So with this wording you accept totally this sort of contraction:

Code:
SpSpSpSp
BwBwBwBw


to


Code:
SpSp
SpSp
BwBw
BwBw

[rbodleyscott]

rbodleyscott wrote:
How about this then?

P.22 CONTRACTIONS


Contraction by a battle group that is not in close combat is carried out as follows: Remove one or two bases from the same or opposite ends of the front rank and place them in any other rank. Move bases not in the front rank to make the formation legal. To qualify as having advanced at least 3 MUs when contracting, both front corners of the final formation must have moved at least 3 MUs

So with this wording you accept totally this sort of contraction:

Code: Select all

SpSpSpSp 
BwBwBwBw 

to

Code: Select all

SpSp 
SpSp 
BwBw 
BwBw

Yes. We thought of not allowing it, but it is historical for Nikephorian Byzantines. For armies where it would not be realistic, we prevent it being a useful formation by only allowing mixed Sp/Bw BGs of 6 bases in those armies.