Recon Cars

El_Condoro · Post by **El_Condoro** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:53 pm

pickle wrote:I think the best option would be the submarine evade trait.

I hate evade for submarines let alone recons.

Don't forget the AI recons will have the same ability. Do you really want the frustration of having those BA-64s et al on one strength point standing before your mighty wehrmacht and not being able to finish them off even though you have Tigers/Panthers/Tiger IIs on 3 sides? OK, an extreme example, but I've seen it with destroyers and subs, so it's possible.

monkspider · Post by **monkspider** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:59 pm

El_Condoro wrote:
pickle wrote:I think the best option would be the submarine evade trait.
I hate evade for submarines let alone recons. Don't forget the AI recons will have the same ability. Do you really want the frustration of having those BA-64s et al on one strength point standing before your mighty wehrmacht and not being able to finish them off even though you have Tigers/Panthers/Tiger IIs on 3 sides? OK, an extreme example, but I've seen it with destroyers and subs, so it's possible.

Good point!

pickle · Post by **pickle** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 8:20 pm

I agree...good point. In thinking about it, might there be a way to limit the evades to one with the unit subject to further attacks being 'in contact' so to speak? Or allow it to withdraw one hex at first contact (if the roll is achieved) and then be subject to further attacks?

Trying to find a method to improve surviability without making them impervious or ahistorically powerful. I always have a recon unit in my force mix but get a little frustrated when the AI goes (usually when I just achieved my second hero), lose it and have to start all over again.

Dalinski · Post by **Dalinski** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:28 am

Panzer Corps in its IGOUGO Glory. You can't really expect recce to last long if you want to use them in their full potential as a dedicated scout. You'd expect a scouting group of armoured cars to as quickly as possible disengage from any threat having done its job in identifying it. However, this does not happen, instead your armoured cars are faced with the full firepower of a 2-3 tank brigades and will not survive.

It takes incredible skill to bring dedicated recce through a campaign and the effort to do so pretty much forces a player to never bother in the first place or to not actually use the unit for its intended purpose. Recce is expendable fodder in this glorious games current state.

I am all for a change that would boost the survivability of Recce units, I would like to feel that I can have experienced recce that can still make a difference and survive tough situations. I don't feel good about treating them as expendables.

The Evade idea while it sounded good initially would end up being annoying and does not reflect the idea that the armoured car is attempting to escape a known threat.

I actually believe that increasing the raw defence of recce would go along way to making them more fun and promote more realism. However recce should retreat more from attacks. If they take 1 suppression damage from direct attack then they should retreat. Also, when recce fight recce both sides should get significant attack bonuses reflecting the idea that recon forces are attempting to dislodge each other, while providing a 'counter' to the high defence of a recon unit.

Should this make them too powerful, increase their cost. I wouldn't like to see armoured car stalling strategies crop up which would be annoying but at least you can counter them by bringing your one recce to the party. I'd see no reason why they can't remain easy targets for air either....

Dalinski · Post by **Dalinski** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:56 am

Actually raw Ground Defence bonuses won't work because they can't be scaled without some effort as hard attacks increases with time.

Someones idea on filtering the damage by percentage produces the desired results though.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 4:32 am

On the same note as ATG not getting new rules, it's highly unlikely that recon will get any new rules either.

Maybe in the future, but also based on the general replies here, recon cars are more or less fine the way they are. They're very useful, very frail, but also very easily replaced.

BriteLite · Post by **BriteLite** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 9:40 am

Blathergut wrote:But could the high GD not be a way of incorporating their ability with manouever and speed?

Good point.

But the inherent defense factor of recon IS in speed. Typically they avoid combat with the enemy. I prefer to keep them as they are now. They should have weak defense. I lose them also but that is the nature of the beast. Make them too strong will result in uber units that can move all over the map.

Happycat · Post by **Happycat** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:03 am

I think they are pretty much ok as is, but perhaps increasing the spotting range for them would help. I'm thinking that if they have the best spotting range of any ground unit, and are used a bit more cautiously, then perhaps they would survive better. An alternative I suppose would be to give them a phased movement capability, so that they could move several times in one turn, but only up to the limit of their range. Then one could just "creep" them forward two or three hexes at a time, and if they run into something they don't like, and have movment left, they could retreat.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:40 am

They already do both of those, it just costs you movement when you start and stop. I think it also costs an extra move if you spot an enemy. Perhaps removing those costs would allow them to sneak a peek and scoot behind the lines.

Happycat · Post by **Happycat** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:02 am

deadtorius wrote:They already do both of those, it just costs you movement when you start and stop. I think it also costs an extra move if you spot an enemy. Perhaps removing those costs would allow them to sneak a peek and scoot behind the lines.

I didn't realize that----I guess I always move them to the max.

I think you're right; removing the costs you refer to would be good.

Thanks for clarifying how recon works

fiambre · Post by **fiambre** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 7:36 am

I find recon units fine as they are atm.

They see much further and have a multi move option that make them excellent to see what is ahead and not going further.

Lets say clear... their task is to go ahead and scout and be easy targets if you go too far or you are unlucky.

I personally never send them too far away from other units, using them very cautiously.

Happycat · Post by **Happycat** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:31 pm

fiambre wrote:I find recon units fine as they are atm.

They see much further and have a multi move option that make them excellent to see what is ahead and not going further.

Lets say clear... their task is to go ahead and scout and be easy targets if you go too far or you are unlucky.

I personally never send them too far away from other units, using them very cautiously.

I agree with you. As someone alluded to earlier, recon wasn't something people volunteered for en masse. Definitely a high risk job.

kjeld111 · Post by **kjeld111** » Tue Nov 15, 2011 12:49 pm

I don't mind having Recon as expendable units. I miss what they did with Fantasy General though, where recon units (light cav and skirmishers) had a niche outside of scouting and had a proper combat role - but fantasy is fantasy, and reality is cold and harsh :p

tnourie · Post by **tnourie** » Wed Nov 16, 2011 4:43 am

What if, when a death is imminent, you lower the chance of destruction (not to zero) and retreat 2 hexes? They were, after all, designed to be uber-manuverable for this reason. Their whole purpose was to Survive and Report.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 3:03 am

don't forget your enemy recon will be doing the same to you, you really want to keep chasing a silly AC around because if you don't it will slip behind you and capture that victory city?
I think they have radios so they can report in what they see just before they get blown up.

Longasc · Post by **Longasc** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:54 am

Yesterday I played "The Hague" and "Sedan" - I want to have my "real" core ready for the 42 DLC at least.

Their special movement makes them very valuable units and early on they are very effective units, not only in regards of recon. They can sneak through, capture cities on the move and all that. But later in 43+ they might become prey again.

Dunno what the verdict is so far, but this is what the DLC taught people:

1. people started using recon units by now. At least 1 or even 2. They are invaluable and can save more than one unit from a horrible death.
2. while they might get lost often, they are also easily replaced

It's indeed odd that they have higher GD than a Panzer III, but they don't have the hard or soft attack of a Panzer III. We could think of the extra GD as a way to show that Recon units are good at avoiding getting killed. I mean the guys really get practice at running away with 1-2 health in my campaigns!

deducter · Post by **deducter** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 6:52 pm

In my games, the recon cars have a GD of 6, as it usual. How are people getting recon cars with a GD of 10?

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Thu Nov 17, 2011 11:33 pm

Perhaps it depends on which recon you choose? I have never actually looked that closely at any of them, other than to see who gets an air attack

OmegaMan1 · Post by **OmegaMan1** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 2:54 am

Perhaps it depends on which recon you choose? I have never actually looked that closely at any of them, other than to see who gets an air attack

I've been using the SdKfz 232 8Rad, if only because it is an all-terrain type unit, which comes in handy in the relatively roadless Russian battlefields.

tnourie · Post by **tnourie** » Fri Nov 18, 2011 3:05 am

[quote="deadtorius"]don't forget your enemy recon will be doing the same to you, you really want to keep chasing a silly AC around because if you don't it will slip behind you and capture that victory city?quote]

Aahhhrrggg. . . you're giving away my strategy. . . And once I see them, it's not so hard to find them if I feel I must. Just uses more resorces I could have used elsewhere.