Anti-tank in the DLC

Akaoz · Post by **Akaoz** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:16 pm

Are they worth it now? I never used them in the OC, and I sold the one I got in the beginning of the 1st DLC. Now I'm wondering if I should get one or two (or more) for the campaign in Russia... Thoughts?

nikivdd · Post by **nikivdd** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:21 pm

I kept mine and could upgrade it later to a Pzjäger IB. In the last scenario of DLC 41 you can upgrade it again. Since then AT gets more interesting.
I might buy a second one in DLC 42. I find my AT unit handy in finishing off tanks. I don't let it wonder of by its own, since they are quite vulnerable.

Akaoz · Post by **Akaoz** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 2:43 pm

The only AT until '42 is the PzJ1A, and two Paks yes?

I wish AT had some sort of support functions like the StuGs.

deadtorius · Post by **deadtorius** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 3:03 pm

I bought 2 pak 50's and a Marder for the last scenario in the 41 campaign. Now for some reason they were able to move 2 hexes which made them much better, actually it looked like all my towed stuff was moving 2 hexes but most of it stayed stationary so not really sure if it was heroes or an odd move bug. The pak 50's really performed well entrenched and backed by artillery, taking out quite a few tanks. The Marder started off to the left then later shifted to the right where it got some tank kills too. I was very pleased with how the pak 50's worked.
also they are very useful in 39 Bzerka river where they can hold the Poles up on the other side of the river and either grab the victory hexes later on or you can move in your own core units. I think if they had that extra move they would prove more useful, and as they continue to get bigger I am sure they will become more useful.

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 4:24 pm

I have all AT's 37mm and smaller as moving two hexes with the ability of moving into thick forest. Works nice.

Now, I'm thinking of making AT's invisible.

What does everyone think of Towed AT's being invisible until you are next to them?
The AI can set up ambushes and you can no longer move forward without caution.

I think this trait would be perfect as that's what AT's specialized in. Hiding attacking and then moving.

El_Condoro · Post by **El_Condoro** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 7:48 pm

Sounds like it could work well - not sure without testing. Which trait makes a unit visible only when adjacent?

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:00 pm

Towed AT is just not all that effective, and even with defensive scenarios, it's difficulty to justify their use.

Once the Marders and StuGs come around in 1942 though, I guarantee people will be picking a few of them up.

deducter · Post by **deducter** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:14 pm

Well, there is one towed AT that is still useful: the 88 in PaK mode. The other Pak though, well, are useless.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 9:19 pm

Problem with the 88 though it's a base air defense unit. There is no upgrade for it, the same 88 from 1939 will not have an upgrade in 1945.
So getting a lot of them, using them as ATG weapons, and then upgrading them (and all their heroes and experience) to say... a Jagdpanther is not possible.

monkspider · Post by **monkspider** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:09 pm

Kerensky, do you have any plans for improving the towed anti-tank units? As you acknowledge, they are still pretty worthless. It is unfortunate because they were very commonly used historically and if they were worth using, they would fill a useful niche especially in the 39 and 40 campaigns.

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:15 pm

This was already done with their price reduction. Some of the heavier ATG, especially the 17 pounder for example, are really quite effective and a cost efficient buy now, on maps like Hylan Valley.

So no more plans. The usefulness of tanks and self propelled anti-tank just makes towed ATG too unattractive except in very specific circumstances. The only fix for them would be some new mechanic or rule to govern them, and that's not going to happen.

Dalinski · Post by **Dalinski** » Sun Nov 13, 2011 10:23 pm

Razz1 wrote: Now, I'm thinking of making AT's invisible.

What does everyone think of Towed AT's being invisible until you are next to them?
The AI can set up ambushes and you can no longer move forward without caution.

This is a smashing idea, it would add so much to the game against an AI opponent. I am really keen on it!

Only if they havn't moved for a turn though.

Also giving them free truck transport when buying them would help too or if you ever get horse drawn transport in.

monkspider · Post by **monkspider** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:11 am

Kerensky wrote:This was already done with their price reduction. Some of the heavier ATG, especially the 17 pounder for example, are really quite effective and a cost efficient buy now, on maps like Hylan Valley.

So no more plans. The usefulness of tanks and self propelled anti-tank just makes towed ATG too unattractive except in very specific circumstances. The only fix for them would be some new mechanic or rule to govern them, and that's not going to happen.

But, but, but, why?

I don't think it is inevitable that these units have to be worthless. My experience with the STuG makes me think that they could have a similar ability, being able to fire like short-range artillery. They still would be difficult to use, due to the normal problems of having to tow them around but still get them close enough to the action, but, like the STuG, they could serve a unique role in combat. What do you think?

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 12:29 am

Well nothing is out of the question, but I wouldn't hold your breath. Sorry.

El_Condoro · Post by **El_Condoro** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:22 am

If low calibre AT is, in fact, pretty useless and not used by players generally, what about removing low calibre AT and increasing the HA of infantry units in the assumption that the AT is incorporated in them?

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 1:31 am

I'm not sure invisibility on the larger towed AT's are worth it. They may be too powerful.

However, a 37mm AT unit that can move two and into thick woods, plus can not been seen would be something a human would have to fight, especially if they have 100 to 200 experience.

Those small AT units can hit medium tanks just fine and at higher experience, may get 1 hit on a larger unit. Still they would block your advance and if you got ambushed the get the first shot.....

Dalinski · Post by **Dalinski** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:34 am

[quote="Razz1"]I'm not sure invisibility on the larger towed AT's are worth it. They may be too powerful.

quote]

Large Towed AT guns are in my experiance not too powerful. SP Anti Tank is a far better option in almost ever situation, mainly due to them being far hard to supress with artillery fire but also being hard to damage from the air too.

Even with this invisibility option players are unlikely to use Towed AT guns, however there would be a certian level of suspense and axhilleration if the computer playing made use of them. And you never know, cunning use of one of these guns might change the course of a Multiplayer game.

On the other side of the coin, of all the units that should be granted invisible, its infantry. And theres a risk that radically changing a game mechanic like this might not feel right, so thorough testing would be an idea.

Dalinski · Post by **Dalinski** » Mon Nov 14, 2011 2:38 am

El_Condoro wrote:If low calibre AT is, in fact, pretty useless and not used by players generally, what about removing low calibre AT and increasing the HA of infantry units in the assumption that the AT is incorporated in them?

You run the risk of turning infantry into an all purpose unit which is counter to the core ethos of Panzer General(Corps)