Recon Cars

[Kerensky]

I'm very happy to see Recon Cars are part of player Cores now, a problem of the default campaign that has been fixed by the change in content.

However, I'm alarmed at the rate people are losing them. Arbitrarily increasing their ground defense is the easiest a solution, but also the least historical and the mostly like to ruffle feathers.

Adding a new hidden 'ability' that helps recon cars survive is the best solution, but the last thing Panzer Corps needs is more undocumented features (plenty of QQ over this already).
Some examples of new abilities:
Can only be spotted when adjacent (submarine)
Has a chance to evade attacks (submarine)
Attacks that kill recon units instead reduce them to 1 strength and force them to retreat (even if they have entrenchment!). Any attack on a 1 strength recon car will kill the unit.
And so on.

So... Options people? Or are we happy to see recon cars get good use, even if they end up as sacrificial fodder time and time again. (at least they're cheap!)

[deducter]

If you increase their survivability, you better increase their prestige costs.

Can only be spotted when adjacent (submarine)
Has a chance to evade attacks (submarine)

Both are too powerful for MP.

Attacks that kill recon units instead reduce them to 1 strength and force them to retreat (even if they have entrenchment!). Any attack on a 1 strength recon car will kill the unit.

Not sure this will work, generally I lose my recon cars because I blunder it into a massive horde of AI units. I suspect the AI will be able to kill it regardless of this ability, although it could help a little.

[Blathergut]

I think they are fine as is. You can't drive them out way beyond your eventual line and expect them to survive. Keep them with your other units and they should survive. They may be a tempting target for the AI but then it is hitting something that's not going to pack a punch back at it.

[El_Condoro]

I don't know about others but the reason I am losing so many is because the AI targets them first. I can have a range of units to attack and more often than not the AI tanks will go for my recons. Easy kills and he pokes out my eyeses.

[kashor73]

I'm not certain there is any need to change them given how cheap they are.

There still uniquely useful for gobbling up towns you've just cleared out with there recon movement ability.


If you decide to alter the rules for them however; one suggestion might be to half the number of attacks they get, but have them only receive 1/2 damage from attacks, the rest of the hits simply increasing the likelyhood of a retreat (similair to how light cavalry worked in Fantasy General IIRC). They'd probably also need to treat there entrenchment as 0 for the purposes of retreat in all cases.

If some rule change is made to there combat mechanics which increases there survivability however, then they could possibly loose there 'zone of control' for the purposes of stopping enemy movement to balance things out.


Looking at what I've just written though it seems like a lot of potentially unbalancing rule changes for not much benefit, I just treat it as a mini victory if one of the little suckers survive a scenario!

[Longasc]

Recon cars don't die more than other units by now... unless they are used for recon.

The point I want to make is:
The vanguard and scouting units will always suffer when they "discover" or even worse get discovered by an armored column or a horde of infantry.
I fear any special abilities would not only be over the top but not change that fact.

I always lose them around the time they get 2 stars and I start to love them!

[deadtorius]

I agree they are preferred target of the AI, but in Poland I found the 20mm of the 222 was sufficient to take on most of the Polish tanks. so enjoy the joys of being an anti-tank threat in 39, it wont be seen again till the Puma Pounces. I usually try to recon move mine back behind the big boys if i can but its rare that they survive a scenario for me too.

[Razz1]

I think they are too powerful. Defense of 10 greater than a PZIII.

Best off returning them to 6GD and giving them the submarine trait.

However, they may break a MP game.

It would force you to keep a unit in all VH's behind the lines.

[nikivdd]

The recon's strength is the multi-maneuverability. I move my recon in steps and when i notice too much trouble ahead, i can still turn it 1 or 2 tiles back.
Sofar i never lost a recon, perhaps part of luck but probable because i move a couple of friends close to it. I never send it further than the tanks can catch up.

And what about introducing a recon plane into the game?

[Tarrak]

I am losing my fair share of recons. Not like it bothers me as they save my more valuable units from being destroyed and are cheap enough but i really would not volunteer to man a recon at the moment.

If you really want to buff them maybe a combination of the ideas in this thread could be an option. How about giving them following ablility: Attacks that kill recon units instead reduce them to 1 strength and force them to retreat (even if they have entrenchment!). When at 1 strength they get a submarine like evade but instead of staying in the field when they evade they are forced to retreat one hex.

This would make them a lot more durable vs multiple attacks which mostly happens if they stumble upon a big force while scouting but would not make unkillable and would prevent a lucky one strength scout from holding a victory hex for a while

[Longasc]

The recon's strength is the multi-maneuverability. I move my recon in steps and when i notice too much trouble ahead, i can still turn it 1 or 2 tiles back.
Sofar i never lost a recon, perhaps part of luck but probable because i move a couple of friends close to it. I never send it further than the tanks can catch up.

And what about introducing a recon plane into the game?

Not with recon movement for sure. This one would barely be able to be shot down due to clever and easy maneuvering without ZoC and terrain influence and provide supreme intelligence at the same time.

[OmegaMan1]

I like the recons as they are. Yes, they are roughed up by the AI, and usually I end up losing one or two in the course of a mission. But I think they serve a basic purpose: finding enemy units before they can ambush. In fact, I've maintained that I'd rather keep replacing recons lost in combat than have to restrengthen or rebuild my more valuable core units that might otherwise get hit by enemy forces.

I will admit that I've become... callous with the recons; if I lose a couple each mission, no big deal. Perhaps if prestige were not readily available, or the recons were higher in price, I might think otherwise. But for now, I think they work fine in the '41 campaign, and would be hard-pressed to match my successes in the beta so far without them.

[Kerensky]

Heh, what can I say? It seems the people have spoken.

Recon cars are cheap, expendable scouts that detect (and absorb) AI counterattacks in order to protect valuable and expensive tanks and artillery units from being caught off guard by an aggressive AI.

[deadtorius]

seems to pretty much sum them up, just don't volunteer to get into one of them thats all

[Razz1]

The recon's strength is the multi-maneuverability. I move my recon in steps and when i notice too much trouble ahead, i can still turn it 1 or 2 tiles back.
Sofar i never lost a recon, perhaps part of luck but probable because i move a couple of friends close to it. I never send it further than the tanks can catch up.

And what about introducing a recon plane into the game?

Not with recon movement for sure. This one would barely be able to be shot down due to clever and easy maneuvering without ZoC and terrain influence and provide supreme intelligence at the same time.

Not really... I have given them less fuel and a shorter movement range.

While the are excellent in reconnoiter they are vulnerable to any attack from the air.

It looks like the recon movement doesn't work for planes as when you fly over a city it takes it over and switches the flag to yours. Even when there is an enemy unit in it!!!

Plus they are very expensive.

You can find them in the AT and AA mod. Unfortunately it's not updated to 1.04 yet as most of the patch has adressed the issues.

Need time and testing to find more options.

You can go to the AT and AA thread to suggest ideas or give feed back.

[monkspider]

I am one of the chief offenders when it comes to high recon casualties but I have to admit it, it is probably more my fault than the unit. I think they are reasonably durable, I just use them more recklessly than I should and see them as somewhat expendable considering their cheap cost. Although, I will say this, I started a new Grand Campaign on the retail DLC to see how an imported core fares in 1941. I am now up to Sedan and I still have the same little recon car that I have had since Poznan so maybe I am making some progress in this area.

One class of units that STILL needs some loving is the towed anti-tank guns. Come on Kerensky, work some magic!

[deadtorius]

Pleased to announce that by some miracle starting a new DLC on FM and I still have the same recon 3 scenarios in. Perhaps we are all feeling more love for the little spy guys after all

[Razz1]

Since day one, I have used recons in most of the campaign scenario's.

That was with the GD as 6

You guy's are just finding out how useful those units are in planning.

The current GD that is stronger than tanks makes them too strong. They should be reduced to at least 8.

Recons GD of 10 and 12 is crazy. Hi, I'm a recon with defense of 12 to your meager defense of 10 for a T-34.

[pickle]

I think the best option would be the submarine evade trait.

As one of the posts above stated, I find the AI targets them first resulting in quick death. Further, I think it would be somewhat 'historical' in that recon units did just that; recon. Once they came into contact with heavier/stronger forces, they would often break off contact to report back or worse case, maintain contact until heavier forces arrived.

[Blathergut]

But could the high GD not be a way of incorporating their ability with manouever and speed?