1939-1940 DLC Polish Campaign Dissapointing.

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Longasc
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Re: Piatek Scenario

Post by Longasc »

tonyUK wrote:I tried this again, but this time instead of placing infantry on river (objectives)bridges I placed them only in river cities, otherwise placing armour one hex behind the river bridges protected by artillery and let the AI take the objective, as opposed to being wiped out. This worked a treat and seemed to confuse the AI. I only lost 1 core unit, and needed 2 Stukas and two fighters to assist. Undoubtedly this is one of the most difficult scenarios and to survive for 20 turns, thankful for just a MV.
That's it, you got it.

Standing on the bridge is being the fish in the barrel. Standing behind the bridge shooting at the attackers ON the bridge makes you the guy shooting at the fish in the barrel.
Besides the advantage of having 2 units on hexes near the lone unit on the bridge. You could even move them back after the attack and rotate in another 2, making it 4 vs 1 on the bridge.

Edit: There will be even more challenging scenarios in the 40 DLC but no worries, you will be a much better player than before by the time you get there. Enjoy! :)
impar
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Re: My 39 DLC experience

Post by impar »

Aloo wrote:Started reading the forum and the people stating that elite units don't make much sense.
Make sense for the overstrength. Apart from that...
Molve
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Post by Molve »

El_Condoro wrote:The Germans may have rolled over the Poles in Sept '39 but it would be boring to do that in a game without some good resistance for challenge's sake.
Well, I would expect the resistance of various countries to follow history to some degree.

If already Poland provides "maximum resistance" then what would be different from facing the 1945 Red Army?

I deeply hope the campaign designers move away from the base game scenario construction philosophy where late game DVs can only be obtained by utterly fantastical results, only for the next campaign to completely ignore the true impact of the previous outcome.

It would feel much MUCH more satisfying if the goals for each scenario are set with realistic aims in mind.

"difficult goals" does not have to mean "wipe the map of enemy units".

Meaning that a scenario against a historically "easy" opponent (such as Poland perhaps) can still be made challenging by DVs requiring steep goals (taking ALL of the map; killing ALL enemy units) etc.

While a scenario against tougher opponents (in the late game) should have its DV goals be more modest. Taking and holding a single victory hex for instance. Killing off all enemy units within a limited part of the map etc.

Nothing wrong with the occasional "all-out assault" scenario (particularly if the DLC campaigns operate on a much smaller scale, allowing the entire map to encompass historical gains). But a smaller scale also means that to take entire maps, the germans were historically enjoying numerical superiority at least on that particular part of the front, at least temporarily.

The scenarios to avoid is the original campaign late-war ones; where you need to obliterate entire Soviet Fronts if you want to achieve a DV. And specifically, to obtain such a DV only to see the war continue as if you hadn't just killed 5 million men... Such a scenario outcome would have meant instant peace negotiations, if not a new push towards Moscow (changing history completely).


In regards to what we're discussing here; do not fall in the trap of making Poland 39 as "difficult" as Russia 44. It's okay to slice through the polish army like a hot knife through butter. Difficulty can still be had; though not by inventing entire brigades of Polish Armor, but by stipulating really challenging DV goals (reach the far end of the map in a short few turns even though there's an entire army between you and there).

I would hate for players to come away from playing the game thinking that the 39 Poles had as many tanks as the French in 40, or the Americans in 43... just for the sake of providing "difficulty" through blunt force...
tonyUK
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Certainly

Post by tonyUK »

Kerensky wrote:I'm glad to hear you gave it another change and come out victorious! :)

Do you still feel disappointed by the DLC campaigns? If so, how so? We're always open to feedback that will help us even further improve future content.
Though by the time I reached Modlin, some of my core units did not appear on the opening list, and I do not recall losing any? The maps are definately more realistic than PG. In PG you felt you could have been anywhere. Another thing as far as air units are concerned in PG if you had 2 air units on either side, the enemy air unit could not retreat, not so in PK.
Kerensky
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Post by Kerensky »

Molve wrote:Well, I would expect the resistance of various countries to follow history to some degree.

If already Poland provides "maximum resistance" then what would be different from facing the 1945 Red Army?

I deeply hope the campaign designers move away from the base game scenario construction philosophy where late game DVs can only be obtained by utterly fantastical results, only for the next campaign to completely ignore the true impact of the previous outcome.

It would feel much MUCH more satisfying if the goals for each scenario are set with realistic aims in mind.

"difficult goals" does not have to mean "wipe the map of enemy units".

Meaning that a scenario against a historically "easy" opponent (such as Poland perhaps) can still be made challenging by DVs requiring steep goals (taking ALL of the map; killing ALL enemy units) etc.

While a scenario against tougher opponents (in the late game) should have its DV goals be more modest. Taking and holding a single victory hex for instance. Killing off all enemy units within a limited part of the map etc.

Nothing wrong with the occasional "all-out assault" scenario (particularly if the DLC campaigns operate on a much smaller scale, allowing the entire map to encompass historical gains). But a smaller scale also means that to take entire maps, the germans were historically enjoying numerical superiority at least on that particular part of the front, at least temporarily.

The scenarios to avoid is the original campaign late-war ones; where you need to obliterate entire Soviet Fronts if you want to achieve a DV. And specifically, to obtain such a DV only to see the war continue as if you hadn't just killed 5 million men... Such a scenario outcome would have meant instant peace negotiations, if not a new push towards Moscow (changing history completely).


In regards to what we're discussing here; do not fall in the trap of making Poland 39 as "difficult" as Russia 44. It's okay to slice through the polish army like a hot knife through butter. Difficulty can still be had; though not by inventing entire brigades of Polish Armor, but by stipulating really challenging DV goals (reach the far end of the map in a short few turns even though there's an entire army between you and there).

I would hate for players to come away from playing the game thinking that the 39 Poles had as many tanks as the French in 40, or the Americans in 43... just for the sake of providing "difficulty" through blunt force...
You should play the DLCs, you wouldn't be disappointed.
This thread shows, even in 1939, there are maps that preclude steamrolling the entire map.
viewtopic.php?t=29137

As for difficulty, well it's all relative.
But the DLC campaigns work on a Tier System. That is:
Yes, you're starting to find the battles harder and harder fought. All working as intended.

Each DLC is a tier. DLC 1939 was Tier 1, DLC 1940 is Tier 2, and so on.
Each tier starts relatively easy(Poznan, Eben-Emael, Belgrade), and then progressively get harder as the campaign continues(Spoils of War, Wassigny, Vyazma).

Then the next tier begins and it starts easy (but not quite AS easy as the easy of previous campaigns), and gets harder again.
What does that mean? It means the starting mission of DLC 1941 is easier than the hardest mission of DLC 1939. The hardest mission of DLC 1941 is harder than the hardest mission of DLC 1939.
Kerensky
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Re: Certainly

Post by Kerensky »

tonyUK wrote:Though by the time I reached Modlin, some of my core units did not appear on the opening list, and I do not recall losing any? The maps are definately more realistic than PG. In PG you felt you could have been anywhere. Another thing as far as air units are concerned in PG if you had 2 air units on either side, the enemy air unit could not retreat, not so in PK.
These could be auxiliary units, DLC 1939 has quite a few of them. Are you sure they were core? Piatek for example has quite a few auxiliaries, as does Lodz.
kjeld111
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Post by kjeld111 »

Molve wrote: In regards to what we're discussing here; do not fall in the trap of making Poland 39 as "difficult" as Russia 44. It's okay to slice through the polish army like a hot knife through butter. Difficulty can still be had; though not by inventing entire brigades of Polish Armor, but by stipulating really challenging DV goals (reach the far end of the map in a short few turns even though there's an entire army between you and there).

I would hate for players to come away from playing the game thinking that the 39 Poles had as many tanks as the French in 40, or the Americans in 43... just for the sake of providing "difficulty" through blunt force...
To be honest, it is not really the case, the DLCs in my opinion work as you want them to work already. The Poland scenarios are easier than the French ones, and there are actually a lot of mechanics that replicate the "hot knife" effect of the early blietzkrieg, like understrength and/or undersupplied units, many poorly defended cities ... The scenarios are not pushovers either largely due to the victory conditions and focused, dangerous counterattacks (in a relatively small scale in scenarios like Wyszogrod or Danzig, or a massive and historically accurate one during the Piatek scenario) on difficult terrain (the bridges on the Bzura or on the Vistula) - not from an inflated number of enemy troops.

Norway is not terribly difficult either, with the "meat" of the Oslo scenario coming from a memorable secondary objective, and the interest of the Narvik battle coming from the scale of the "combined arms" operation (air, naval, paradrops ...).

I think the balance between historical realism and game play balance (sufficient and appropriate challenge) has been elegantly found.
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Re: My 39 DLC experience

Post by Naxor »

Aloo wrote:But once you learn to use green replacements (the biggest change for me) you start to get large amounts of prestige, but also loose interest in your units. I didn't care much about loosing a pioneer inf in Warsaw, as he was expendable. I stopped naming units as there is no point in this.
Good point. My personal goal was to get near 200xp for every unit till the end of '39 dlc so used elite replacements only in last missions.
Uhu
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Re: My 39 DLC experience

Post by Uhu »

Play it on Rommel level - that is the real challenging level! :wink:
You will have quite lower prestige support.

Aloo wrote:Ive started the 39' DLC a few days ago. Decided for FM setting (played the vanilla campaign on the middle setting - corporal?) as I was looking for a challenge. Had a lot of fun till the end of Piątek scenario, winning all with DV on the last given turn, losing some units each time.
Finished Piątek the same way except had to use green replacements sometimes, which was new to me.
For the next mission had a bit over 100 prestige and 1 unit below the max allowed core.

Started reading the forum and the people stating that elite units don't make much sense. Sold the towed AT gun, replaced all inf and tanks with green reps, only using elite on some art and planes.

Kampinos was a transition mission - I used green replacements a lot, and finished with a DV one turn before the end. Had much more prestige at the end (around 500 range).
Modlin was next and used the same strategy - finished DV on last turn with about 600 prestige.
Warsaw south as way too easy - finished around 4-5 turns away from the end of time with DV. Prestige at the end around 1400.

Didn't play any more yet. So to sum up most of the time limits are perfect - love fighting till the last turn. But once you learn to use green replacements (the biggest change for me) you start to get large amounts of prestige, but also loose interest in your units. I didn't care much about loosing a pioneer inf in Warsaw, as he was expendable. I stopped naming units as there is no point in this.

Still spending the excess prestige on elite reps for planes and artillery, but Im not sure that is needed.

Im really liking the DLC, but have a strange feeling that the "cannon fodder" strategy which works best, is not something that should be used by the Germans, feels more like Russian methods.

Not sure if a slightly cheaper elite replacement wouldn't balance more nicely, with the little advantage that they give you on the battlefield.

PS Thanks for a great game :)
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Post by Casaubon »

I like Molve´s statements very much and second his plea of achieving scenario difficulty by other means than masses of nonhistorical enemy units. I am quite happy how this was done in the 39 DLC though, I think scenario designers provided good and working results there. thumbs up
steelwarrior
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Feedback on DLC 39

Post by steelwarrior »

First I really like the long campaign - waited for that - still have some wishes:

As a German player I like my core to be elite and small (outnumbered) but I need far more prestige for that and I want to be emotionally bonded to my units - running this great long campaign - so please give more prestige points and give the enemy more units or replacements to equal the difficulty - do not let my units be pure canon fodder...

Never lost any unit and had al DVs on Field marshall (only chose this one because I thought I have enough PP to make my units elite - but i was wrong...)

Wyszogrod this scenario never appeared after all of my DVs? What happened? Kept in Piatek every single spot...and even did a counteroffensive to earn some PP...

Again taking care of cores is main fun for me additionally to having DVs and the most modern equipment - so please add PP and make resistance harder pleaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaase!

Would be great if core would have an additional German city name randomly - I know I can name them myself but the program could do it as well ;-)

Scenarios could be bigger and longer - additional to the long campaign...

thanks for the great DLC anyways - really enjoy it!
Aloo
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Re: My 39 DLC experience

Post by Aloo »

Uhu wrote:Play it on Rommel level - that is the real challenging level! :wink:
You will have quite lower prestige support.

I didnt unlock that difficulty level yet. Like I said I played Corporal up till now. I will try it for sure later on.
steelwarrior wrote:Wyszogrod this scenario never appeared after all of my DVs? What happened? Kept in Piatek every single spot...and even did a counteroffensive to earn some PP...
I think you go to Wyszogrod if you get a minor victory in Piatek. A DV makes you go to Kampinoska.
Molve
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Post by Molve »

I consider all difficulty levels below General to be mere curiosities only; a crutch for players completely new to the Panzer General/Corps playing style.

Why? Because the AI is supposedly reduced below General.

And when you consider how primitive the AI is in general (manual tweaks made by skilful scenario designers notwithstanding) you easily conclude you do not want to cripple it anymore than you have to.

Thus I consider General the baseline level of playing difficulty.
steelwarrior
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Post by steelwarrior »

I think I know how to make core lovers like me happy could be installed in PC and DLCs easily - just make it optional if free replacements at the beginning of each scenarios are elite - then everyone can choose for himself ;-) thanks!
Last edited by steelwarrior on Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Rudankort »

steelwarrior wrote:I think I know how to make core lovers like me happy could be installed in PC and DLCs easily - just make it optional if free replacements at the beginning of each scenarios are elite - then everyonn can choose for himself ;-) thanks!
This option is already available, look in Data/gamerules.pzdat file. It is just that it is not configurable in the UI, because we wanted only one "official' gameplay. It would be too confusing otherwise.
steelwarrior
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Post by steelwarrior »

Oh - cool - also works for DLCs? Then i can finally play on harder difficulty ;-) With which program can I open that file?

By the way the big digfference of dices against players is still frustrating sometimes a dice roll of three dices against me in a fificcult scenario can kill the whole scenario (happens again and again - so that i have to reload - like I should win 3:0 but loose 3:0 happens sometimes three time after each other...how about putting dices this way - 60% happens what is shown 20% against player and 20% for player - makes it more balanced ;-)

Rahter put in some more units for the AI or more replacments PP for the AI to increase difficulty ;-) saves a lot of nerves of players...
Last edited by steelwarrior on Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:08 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Rudankort »

steelwarrior wrote:oh - cool - also works for DLCs? Then i can finally play on harder difficulty ;-) With which program can I open that file?
Use Notepad. DLCs have their own version of gamerules.pzdat, so look in their respective folders. You need to change CamEReplaceCost parameter from 50 to 0. Then just use elite replacements button to get your free elite replacements between scenarios.
steelwarrior
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Post by steelwarrior »

Why not include it in options - and an explanation for core lovers who want to play on higher difficulty ;-)

I believe this include even a higher rating in tests - if you explain it properly - cause loving your core should be one of the main game motivations ;-)

So I have on scenario less when I have DV in Piatek or just a different scenario? Please never punish with lesser secnarios for DVs ;-) always just more with Bonus scenarios ;-)

By the way also halfed out the Elite replacement costs at all - now it should be exactly the game I like - I will play it on high difficulty but not run out on Elite replacments so easily ;-)
Last edited by steelwarrior on Thu Nov 10, 2011 1:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Aloo
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Post by Aloo »

steelwarrior wrote:Why not include it in options - and an explanation for core lovers who want to play on higher difficulty ;-)

So I have on scenario less when I have DIV in Piatek or just a different scenario? Please never punish with lesser secnarios for DVs ;-) always just more with Bonus scenarios ;-)
Different one. If you went to Wyszogrod you would of missed Kapinoska.

Here is the tree: viewtopic.php?t=29298
steelwarrior
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Post by steelwarrior »

hmmm - put Elite Replacements on 0 in DLCs and PC and still pay for it at the beginning of the scenario...why?

CamReplaceCost 0
CamEReplaceCost 0

thats the one, right?
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