support shooting from a second rank

[sparabara88]

i thought i knew this rule but at a competition at the weekend we had an strange interpretation

lhlh
lhlh
lhlhlblblb
lhlhlblblb
cvcv
cv

the cv charge the front of longbow unit one lh charges the flank and one lh charges the rear,
on page 56 it says bases contacted on a side or rear edge or a rear corner are immediatly turned 90 to 180 degrees to face chargers
this is not what happened in the game the second rank provided support shooting and then turned in mand fought the melee against the lh to the rear
to be fair to our opponents they agreed it was unfair but it had happened to them before in another comp so we called for an umpire and he agreed with there interpretation

[sparabara88]

sorry about the diagram one lh unit was behind the lb unit,
i have read the rules and i cannot find anything that backs up that interpretation, am i missing something?on the day we accepted the decision we still won but i still cannot accept this was correct! all 4 players thought it was wrong, but we were in a competion so had to accept it
opinions please

[grahambriggs]

No, they can't support shoot as they are a front rank base. The support shooting rules say:

"Foot armed with certain missile weapons will attempt to inflict damage on enemy chargers by shooting over the ranks in front. This is represented by support shooting from a rank behind the one fighting in the impact phase"

There are no ranks in front as they ARE the rank in front!

[philqw78]

If a flank charger contacts the front rank and second rank base before the front rank base is contacted by the cavalry they both turn immediately. This would put a bow in second rank.

Being contacted in rear this cannot happen, as only those bases contacted turn, immediately.

[sparabara88]

not sure where it says about which charge moves first? it says in the turn sequence make charge moves so i assume each one hits at the same time as i read the rules the back rank turns immediatly and because both ranks now have enemy in contact with front edge one base is turned to face the flank charge, thats how i understand the rule on page 56/57
i agree with graham they cannot support shoot thats why i charged in the lh to take off the support shooting against the cv

[philqw78]

Since its rear there is no support shooting. I agree with that. The flank bit I added as flank charges can be slightly different. (even more different and confusing if contacting flank but counting as frontal contact because not legal flank contact.)

As for order of charges, and which base turns immediately, its up to the active player.

Can make a big difference. If you hit the end of a line in flank and front, but the front hits first, the end base will not turn to flank as it is already contacted to front. The player who charged in the flank can chose to fight with the flank contact in impact, having most bases in contact, but it has not turned so will not be fighting in 2 directions in melee.

Was there a Mr Ruddock umpiring at this event?

[grahambriggs]

not sure where it says about which charge moves first? it says in the turn sequence make charge moves so i assume each one hits at the same time as i read the rules the back rank turns immediatly and because both ranks now have enemy in contact with front edge one base is turned to face the flank charge, thats how i understand the rule on page 56/57
i agree with graham they cannot support shoot thats why i charged in the lh to take off the support shooting against the cv

It's close to the end of the Impact section under Sequence of Charges: "if there is more than one charge the active player chooses the order in which they are actioned"

So the charging player decides which charges go in first.

[sparabara88]

Since its rear there is no support shooting. I agree with that. The flank bit I added as flank charges can be slightly different. (even more different and confusing if contacting flank but counting as frontal contact because not legal flank contact.)

As for order of charges, and which base turns immediately, its up to the active player.

Can make a big difference. If you hit the end of a line in flank and front, but the front hits first, the end base will not turn to flank as it is already contacted to front. The player who charged in the flank can chose to fight with the flank contact in impact, having most bases in contact, but it has not turned so will not be fighting in 2 directions in melee.

Was there a Mr Ruddock umpiring at this event?

[viperofmilan]

Don't have the rules handy, but I seem to recall that there is something about no support shooting in response to a flank charge.

Kevin

[petedalby]

Umpires are under pressure to reach a decision but you would expect them to at least read the rules and sadly this is just plain wrong.

See Page 99 3rd bullet point - it couldn't be clearer - there is no support shooting where a BG is charged in flank or rear.

[bbotus]

there is no support shooting where a BG is charged in flank or rear.

Almost. My book says: "Support shooting cannot be used against enemy charging the BG in the flank or rear."

So if the lb's had a 2nd rank stand that was not in contact, then it could support shoot against the unit attacking the lb in a frontal charge.

...LL
LLBBB<-
LLBBB
...CC
...CC

If this is the actual position, then the one 'B<-' stand on the right was not contacted on the flank or rear and could support shoot during the impact resolution. As everyone agrees, the other two 2nd rank B stands are in contact and no longer effectively in a 2nd rank. Therefore, they cannot shoot in impact as per page 98.

[berthier]

Except by the diagram, B< is not a base providing rear support to any base of B contacted to its front in the impact phase.

[petedalby]

What was the competition?

[dave_r]

I was asked whether or not their was support shooting for the elements contacted at the front. I ruled there was, obviously there was no support shooting for those elements fighting to their rear.

This was at the northern doubles.

[petedalby]

But if the rank that should provide the support shooting is turned to face the enemy - how can it shoot?

Or is the original diagram wrong?

[bbotus]

Except by the diagram, B< is not a base providing rear support to any base of B contacted to its front in the impact phase.

Oops! Yep, move the cav 1 file to the right. Thanks for pointing that out.

[dave_r]

But if the rank that should provide the support shooting is turned to face the enemy - how can it shoot?

Or is the original diagram wrong?

When i was there nothing had turned. I think the flank charge was separate i.e. the flank element hadn't been contacted frontally.

[sparabara88]

But if the rank that should provide the support shooting is turned to face the enemy - how can it shoot?

Or is the original diagram wrong?

it was the two bases that should have provided support shooting that was charged in the rear that was the whole point of charging in the lh to take of the support shooting against the cv who had charged the bow frontaly
we did not turn the bases because we were wanting other opinions from more experianced players
in the end the combat was a draw and we had to brake off the cv dropped to fragged and broke a bound later from failing a cohesion test from shooting
i cannot remember if the support shooting had any effect[/u]

[bbotus]

the two bases that should have provided support shooting that was charged in the rear

Wait a minute. Do you guys do each charge sequence one at a time? That is, you do one charge, make the evade, make the charge , resolve the impact, and then do the next charge? You said it was a tournament, so I can't believe this would be the case. But for those who do resolve charges 1 unit at a time, then I can see how you'd get into this problem.

If you do each step completely for all units and then go to the next step, then there shouldn't be any question. The second rank would have turned to face the rear chargers and they would be fighting with 2 dice each in the front rank and not in a position to support shoot from the 2nd rank.

[grahambriggs]

the two bases that should have provided support shooting that was charged in the rear

Wait a minute. Do you guys do each charge sequence one at a time? That is, you do one charge, make the evade, make the charge , resolve the impact, and then do the next charge? You said it was a tournament, so I can't believe this would be the case. But for those who do resolve charges 1 unit at a time, then I can see how you'd get into this problem.

If you do each step completely for all units and then go to the next step, then there shouldn't be any question. The second rank would have turned to face the rear chargers and they would be fighting with 2 dice each in the front rank and not in a position to support shoot from the 2nd rank.

There was a loooooooooooong thread recently on this. The rules say

"Each charge and any responses to it must be actioned in the order listed in the full turn sequence at the end of the book, but if there is more than one charge the active player chooses the order in which they are actioned."

So the charging player would normally charge the rear first.