A Long and Hard Fought Game

After action reports for Commander Europe at War.

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rkr1958
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A Long and Hard Fought Game

Post by rkr1958 »

Below are screen caps from a game I just finished as the allies against Craig. Craig achieved a major axis victory with Moscow being liberate on the very last turn at least denying him a strategic victory. We started this game in late January with a pre-released beta of GSv2.00 (GS2.00z2) and finished it the current beta for GSv2.01 (GSv2.01.32).

I always like to look at my games through the lens of history (as best as I can) in order to evaluate the historical believability of them. Looking at the situation I would estimate that the allies were maybe 9-months to a year away from total victory. So we'd be looking at a Spring '46 surrender of Germany. A question for you historians out there. Do you believe that the US would have used one or both of it's atomic bombs against Germany?

Back to the game. In Russia, the Craig made a stand at all cost to keep Moscow, as he should, because of its status as one of the victory capitals. This simulates very well Hitler's stand at all costs orders. Moscow is in effect the Stalingrad of this game. Too bad for me that it occurred 2-1/2 years after the real Stalingrad.

I wish to congratulate Craig on his victory and on a well played game. It was an enjoyable game and I thought I'd share a bit of it with you.

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Diplomaticus
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Wow!

Post by Diplomaticus »

So, I guess Axis *can* win, after all.

Thanks for posting this, and I'll bet a lot of us would like to hear some summary of how it all played out.

Since you asked, I'm 100% convinced that the US would have dropped the bomb on Germany in August 1945, as soon as they could do it. From the beginning, the Manhattan Project had been targeted with the Hitler in mind. Most of the scientists on the Project, for example, were motivated primarily by the urge to defeat the Nazis, especially because of the fear that they were developing their own atomic weapons.

If I remember correctly, the US already had bomb #3 (a plutonium device, like Fat Man) set to drop on a 3rd Japanese target if the Japanese hadn't capitulated following Nagasaki.

I strongly recommend this read: 'The Making of the Atomic Bomb.' One of the very finest nonfiction books I've ever read. Richard Rhodes, I think, is the author.
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Post by Blathergut »

The bomb would never have been dropped on Europe. It was obvious the Germans were going down. Not so with the Japanese. And there was racism involved.
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Post by Cybvep »

IMO the bomb would be used on some important German cities (but NOT Berlin) and then the Allies would demand the German surrender. German allies would probably surrender immediately out of fear, but if Germany itself refused, then the a-bombs would probably be used as tactical weapons. Nobody needs a nuclear wasteland, especially not in Europe.

In case of Japan a direct invasion of the home islands would be much more costly than using a-bombs. Even the Germans were not that fanatical as the Japanese were.
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Post by Plaid »

Its not safe at all to throw bomb at germany, as guys had jet fighters, AA missles and simple good air-defence system (not like Japan in 1945), so risk would be unworthy.

Also late war allied bomb-raids with hundreds of heavy bombers (like Dresden) had same effect, as nuclear bombing (thousands of normal bombs together had way more explosive power, then early nuclear weapons)
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Post by Diplomaticus »

Blathergut wrote:The bomb would never have been dropped on Europe. It was obvious the Germans were going down. Not so with the Japanese. And there was racism involved.
I respectfully disagree.

At the time there was no particular moral or other 'special' conception of the atom bomb--it was just one really, really big bomb. We had already obliterated Dresden and other cities with conventional bombing. Why would the Allies hesitate to obliterate a city with one bomb when they'd already done it with thousands?
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Post by Peter Stauffenberg »

I think the US would have used the atomic bomb on a German city to show that they were capable of destroying Germany completely. They would hope that maybe some Germans would then turn against Hitler to prevent the destruction of Germany as a nation. E. g. Speer could have been such a person. I'm sure Hitler would have refused to surrender even after being nuked, but some others in the nazi party could have seen this as a chance to end the war.
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On the game with Ronnie

Post by massina_nz »

Well as Ronnie pointed out, this was a very long game, started almost a year ago. So through the patience of Ronnie we were able to complete it.

Up to Barbarossa, the game followed a typical path - Poland, Denmark, Holland, then a Sitzkrieg, Belgium, France, Norway, Yugoslavia. I skipped Greece as the Allies showed an intent to intervene.

During Barbarossa I managed to take Leningrad, reached Kursk but not Rostov. The critical point of the game, and I was wise enough to see it, was when the Russians stayed in the Bryansk-Kiev-Dnepropetrovsk salient after the '41 winter. In 1942 seized the opportunity to rip great chunks out of the over-extended Russian army, taking Moscow and Stalingrad in the process. With the Russians somewhat subdued I was able to neuter the Allies in Italy in 43-44. I had plenty of troops in France in 1944, but had placed them poorly, so the Allies got ashore, but was able to hold them at the Seine once winter came.

At the end of the game I too was wondering, when the war in Europe would have actually ended and how.
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So long and thanks for all the fish.

Post by massina_nz »

This was my last CEAW game in the foreseeable future, it was great to finish against such a gracious opponent. I've had a wonderful couple of years playing this great game. My gratitude to the development team and the beta testers who have spent countless hours improving what was already a fun game.

I've played around 60 games, and in doing so have suffered from CEAW-fatigue, so it's time to move on to other things.
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Closing thoughts

Post by massina_nz »

Well I never played the original vanilla version of CEAW, only joining in on the fun in GS v1.0. So I've seen the power balance shift from the Allies (v1.0) to the Axis (v2.0) and then swing back a bit towards the Allies, then a preponderance to circumvent the min/max strategies. Reminds me a bit of the Foundation series written by Isaac Asimov, the gradual growth of the Foundation, until the arrival of the Mule. Hey I'm not calling Morris a troll, because, no troll would play so many games, but if you looked at the ratio on posts Morris makes versus the replies they generate then you'd just have to smile.

So I'm looking forward to the release of Commander the Great War - wow a similar engine to CEAW, with the fantastic PBEM ++ engine. Hmmm, for those who grumble about suspected cheating in CEAW (I've played quite a few players, and there's only a couple I wouldn't play again - not a bad ratio), then maybe the next breakthough will be able to create a WWII mod of CtGW?

Hey guys keep on enjoying CEAW.
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Post by Crazygunner1 »

If it would have saved american lives then they probably would have dropped it somwhere in Germany.

There are "rumors" and some intresting information that Germany would have produced the first A-bomb if they could prolong the war a little further. However none of this has been confirmed and the allies were very secret about german scientists during the end and after the war.
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Post by Clark »

Crazygunner1 wrote:If it would have saved american lives then they probably would have dropped it somwhere in Germany.

There are "rumors" and some intresting information that Germany would have produced the first A-bomb if they could prolong the war a little further. However none of this has been confirmed and the allies were very secret about german scientists during the end and after the war.
The Germans effectively gave up on their nuclear program midway through the war. Which was a pretty sensible move, because the amount of resources they would have had to divert from their war effort to produce a few A-bombs years in the future would have likely led to an earlier loss for them.
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Post by Diplomaticus »

Crazygunner1 wrote:If it would have saved american lives then they probably would have dropped it somwhere in Germany.

There are "rumors" and some intresting information that Germany would have produced the first A-bomb if they could prolong the war a little further. However none of this has been confirmed and the allies were very secret about german scientists during the end and after the war.
As I wrote above, this is explained in detail in the book 'The Making of the Atomic Bomb.' The Allies in '45 did capture a site where the Germans were working on a heavy-water reactor (their equivalent of Fermi's atomic pile built in '42 at U. of Chicago), but they weren't even remotely close to getting their own bomb. The scale of the project was almost unthinkably massive, and Germany was in no position to create the necessary infrastructure.
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Post by PionUrpo »

Man Ostfront looks empty :shock:
And that took some serious amount of time :shock: :shock:
I had similarly long game with Craig as well but not quite that long.


What ever city left (relatively) unscathed (-Berlin) by RAF/USAAF bites the Bomb. I wonder how likely it would be for the Nazi bigwigs to surrender after more start dropping... certainly one won't be enough as long as there's still ground for them.
Clark wrote:
Crazygunner1 wrote:If it would have saved american lives then they probably would have dropped it somwhere in Germany.

There are "rumors" and some intresting information that Germany would have produced the first A-bomb if they could prolong the war a little further. However none of this has been confirmed and the allies were very secret about german scientists during the end and after the war.
The Germans effectively gave up on their nuclear program midway through the war. Which was a pretty sensible move, because the amount of resources they would have had to divert from their war effort to produce a few A-bombs years in the future would have likely led to an earlier loss for them.
The usefulness of the German bomb project wrt to winning the war probably rivals Maus or Horten Flying Wing. :roll:
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Post by Cybvep »

They lacked resources for the bomb. They didn't even get their hands on heavy water plants in Norway, because Norwegian commandos sabotaged them.

However, considering how much V2 development cost them, one could wonder what would happen if they diverted more resources to the nuclear project and the Norwegian commandos didn't succeed...

Also, I wouldn't laugh at the Wunderwaffe. Many experimental projects fail in the end and we certainly wouldn't be laughing if any of them succeeded. Some people ridiculed submarines or carriers and look how important these weapon types are now.
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Post by PionUrpo »

Cybvep wrote:They lacked resources for the bomb. They didn't even get their hands on heavy water plants in Norway, because Norwegian commandos sabotaged them.

However, considering how much V2 development cost them, one could wonder what would happen if they diverted more resources to the nuclear project and the Norwegian commandos didn't succeed...
I've read somewhere on the 'oh so reliable www', that had the V2 been axed, they might've had the funds for A-Bomb project IF they chose the right method and stuck to it. Manhattan Project took no chances and paid for several possible avenues of building the bomb. They'd still lack the delivery system though. And since the timing would've still been very late, it still doesn't strike as likely to win the war for them.
Also, I wouldn't laugh at the Wunderwaffe. Many experimental projects fail in the end and we certainly wouldn't be laughing if any of them succeeded. Some people ridiculed submarines or carriers and look how important these weapon types are now.
Fair enough many experimental stuff does indeed end up working, maybe I've seen too many docs of 'napkinwaffe of the week that would've won the war'. Or maybe I just watch the wrong docs :lol: . But the relative amounts between napkin vs useful in Nazi Germany has always struck me as quite bad.

Anyway, the tank that sinks to most ground, can't cross brigdes, can't move at useful speed, so huge that it'll attract bombers like flies, etc etc is still something one has to wonder how it ever got to the drawing board (and poured crapload of money to)... Same for the '40s-era plane that can't fly without fly-by-wire.
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Post by Cybvep »

I've read somewhere on the 'oh so reliable www', that had the V2 been axed, they might've had the funds for A-Bomb project IF they chose the right method and stuck to it. Manhattan Project took no chances and paid for several possible avenues of building the bomb. They'd still lack the delivery system though. And since the timing would've still been very late, it still doesn't strike as likely to win the war for them.
The V-2 development program cost approximately 2 billion 1944 $. The cost of the Manhattan project was similar! Obviously, the Germans were much more advanced in rocketry than the Allies. No wonder why the Allies were trying to steal as much as they could from them...

BTW despite the V2's shortcomings, it was practically impossible to stop that rocket from reaching its target by technical countermeasures. The Allies relied on deception, but it was a huge gamble. They still had to disable the launch sites eventually.
They'd still lack the delivery system though.
Rockets? Bombers?

Only ONE bomber/rocket needs to get through in order to bomb a city into oblivion if you have a nuke. And imagine what a great "surprise" it would be if London suddenly got nuked.

They were also working on strategic bombers that could reach America ("America Bomber"). They also had TONS of biochemical weapons but were too afraid to used them because of the risk of retaliation and overwhelming Allied air superiority. However, the Germans were producing gas masks at an astonishing rate in 1944-1945, so you never know...
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Post by PionUrpo »

Cybvep wrote: The V-2 development program cost approximately 2 billion 1944 $. The cost of the Manhattan project was similar! Obviously, the Germans were much more advanced in rocketry than the Allies. No wonder why the Allies were trying to steal as much as they could from them...
The reason they couldn't do a full-scale (cover all approaches) Manhattan Project copy was because it took huge amounts of electricity that wasn't available in Europe (no TVA for example). Building more capacity would've upped the costs for a Manhattan scale project. BUT they don't have to do it that way, since some methods took significantly less electricity. So, a slightly smaller scale project could be done with V2 fundings.
BTW despite the V2's shortcomings, it was practically impossible to stop that rocket from reaching its target by technical countermeasures. The Allies relied on deception, but it was a huge gamble. They still had to disable the launch sites eventually.
That's very true. Good thing German operatives on British Isles had been rooted or turned way back or they could've caused more devastation by giving accurate targeting info. In the end though, without NBC warhead it's an expensive onetime bomber. I guess it comes down to whether the Allied efforts to disable V2 took as much effort as building & developement.
Rockets? Bombers?

Only ONE bomber/rocket needs to get through in order to bomb a city into oblivion if you have a nuke. And imagine what a great "surprise" it would be if London suddenly got nuked.
If they axe V2 to have funds for an A-bomb obviously no rockets for delivery. 1st generation weapons are too heavy for a V2 anyway.

Assuming things otherwise go roughly as in reality, by the time they can build the Bomb (if they manage to beat MP, '44 would still be extremely generous more likely sometime '45) bombers are facing so much opposition in the air that most targets are extremely hard to reach (they didn't have many heavy bombers either). Moscow would probably make most sense since Soviets had limited high altitude interceptors and no radar. London would require come serious luck.
They were also working on strategic bombers that could reach America ("America Bomber"). They also had TONS of biochemical weapons but were too afraid to used them because of the risk of retaliation and overwhelming Allied air superiority. However, the Germans were producing gas masks at an astonishing rate in 1944-1945, so you never know...
ABomber has to be built too... in time preferably.

Thank god they weren't nutty enough to use those chems or Central Europe would have an anthrax (infinetly worse than anything in German arsenal) coating TODAY. *shudder*
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Post by Cybvep »

Oh, they used enough chemicals in Central Europe, I assure you. Just for slightly different things than chemical warfare...

And they had tabun, sarin, soman - I don't want to think how much damage could be caused by them...
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Post by Diplomaticus »

I don't think it would have been physically possible to construct bomb-proof underground sites (as they did for a lot of the V-2 production) for a German Manhattan Project. The isotope-separation (for uranium) and massive atomic piles (for plutonim production) facilities built at Oak Ridge and in Eastern Washington state were comparable to small cities. I just cannot imagine the Germans building and maintaining those kinds of facilities--facilities which were notoriously cranky and apt to clog/break down--while hordes of B-17's were pummeling them with bombs.
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