Overwhelmed in later scenerios, need advice please

[irjebiv]

I've been playing on lower difficulty settings because, well, I like winning...lol I planned on raising it once I gained more skill but now that I'm in the later scenerios I dunno. I mean, it suddenly got ridiculously hard!

Last night I was playing the Lake map and had 3 jets, 2 stukas, 1 strat bomber, 3 Tiger IIs, 3 panthers, 4 arty pieces, 2 scouts and rest infantry. All 4 stars or over and maxed overstrength. I deployed them in a cautious stance approaching the two closest objectives and decided to take it nice and slow. Before I knew it the red army bombers took out my SP Arty and a hundred IS2's and other armor overwhelmed me. Oh, and my infantry was eliminated even though they were dug-in in the hills and forest.

So I tried it again, this time trying to lure their forces out and clear them before going on the offensive. That didn't work either. Every turn I was overwhelmed and had to watch all my "pet" units get cleared from the board. Very frustrating. On the third try I managed to save half of my forces but lost because I ran out of turns and I wasn't even close to taking two objectives.

So, does anyone have any pointers? I'm getting very frustrated and this is happening to me on LT level. Surely you folks on higher levels know something I don't.

[Fimconte]

I think your troop concentration is too infantry heavy, you should have more Artillery and Armour.
In general I tend to follow 1:2:1.5 ratio for Pioneers:Tanks:Artillery.

For Infantry, I use mostly Pioneers due to the fact they ignore Entrenchment when attacking.
Tanks: Full Tiger II's, with perhaps a Maus if I have a tank unti with 2 +1 movement heroes.
Artillery: a mix of 21cm towed artillery (60-80% of total artillery) and Wurhramen 40's (artillery units with +1 range upgrades).

Pioneers and Grenadiers need support from Artillery, even when in close terrain.
Panthers are relatively useless in (late-war) defensive maps, if you have prestige, go full Tiger II.

You can use Fighters to provide a protective umbrella around your troops, they cover the surrounding 6 hexes and will fire upon enemy planes trying to attack units in those hexes.

Get more planes, 3 is very low for late-war, you should have at least 4-6 Fighters.
Tactical Bombers are nice, but in late war they are somewhat ineffective vs heavy soviet Armour.
Personally I prefer to use more Strategic Bombers (2-4) since they can be used to deplete the ammo of Soviet Heavy Armour, rendering them a non-threat (if it's out of ammo, it can't shoot back and is quickly wiped out).

Surrounded and slightly suppressed units can be forced to surrender easily, as illustrated in this video: Operation: Fall Gelb

[kjeld111]

I agree, there is quite a big shift in unit effectiveness between early and late war. Tactics that worked wonders during the blietzkrieg fail spectacularly after that. '43 infantry is outclassed. Enemy air force (soviet or US) is significantly stronger and more numerous, and you need an appropriate number of fighters to counter. Tactical bombers are godly in early blitzkrieg, but they don't really keep up with enemy armor later. Artillery and Strategic Bombers are still useful. If you can work around their speed, big AT units like Elefant or Maus are very effective (when most AT units are meh early game). Tigers/King Tigers are godly. You need definitely more of them.

There is a somewhat hidden "learning curve" for this game : what to do with your prestige all along the campaign. It is not obvious or especially intuitive, but you really, really need to save up lots of it in the (comparatively easy) early game in order to afford to upgrade (outside of cheap upgrade paths)/purchase the tons of heavy tanks, AT and modern fighters you need in the late defensive scenarios.

[Longasc]

First, Balaton is a beast and even if you are on the attack you should not expect victory to be easy or without losses in the late war battles in general.

Instead of arguing "it might be too hard" which is indeed something to debate I will try to give you some pointers how to survive Balaton.

I lost units trying to take the cities and could not hold them either. So I suggest a defensive "survival" approach. Turtle for a while and attack when you feel you have killed most of the Russian armor. Prestige could be tight, so maybe get used to use normal reinforcements instead of Elite.
You have better fighters but there are so many Russian aircrafts that you should consider adding Flakpanzers to defend your ground units in addition to that.
Don't lead with infantry, let them only fight in restricted terrain that makes them attack the close defense value of tanks, like hills, forests, cities.
Make sure to form a line with armor so that one tank cannot be attacked by some 4 enemy tanks in one turn, and back them up with artillery.
Level bombers and artillery can help your Stukas and tanks to take out enemy tanks immsensely.

No matter what difficulty you play, this scenario is a tough nut. It might be even harder for you as you are not used to this at Lieutenant difficulty. Trust me, you can play on Colonel. It's a bit like training, a little harder resistance will teach you things and make you a better player and you will still have fun.

Well, probably not in Balaton. We are used to attacking and winning in Panzer Corps for the most time, but by the time you play the late war defense scenarios or offensives you will have to get used to much tougher Allied resistance and better equipment.

[edahl1980]

I've been playing on lower difficulty settings because, well, I like winning...lol I planned on raising it once I gained more skill but now that I'm in the later scenerios I dunno. I mean, it suddenly got ridiculously hard!

Last night I was playing the Lake map and had 3 jets, 2 stukas, 1 strat bomber, 3 Tiger IIs, 3 panthers, 4 arty pieces, 2 scouts and rest infantry. All 4 stars or over and maxed overstrength. I deployed them in a cautious stance approaching the two closest objectives and decided to take it nice and slow. Before I knew it the red army bombers took out my SP Arty and a hundred IS2's and other armor overwhelmed me. Oh, and my infantry was eliminated even though they were dug-in in the hills and forest.

So I tried it again, this time trying to lure their forces out and clear them before going on the offensive. That didn't work either. Every turn I was overwhelmed and had to watch all my "pet" units get cleared from the board. Very frustrating. On the third try I managed to save half of my forces but lost because I ran out of turns and I wasn't even close to taking two objectives.

So, does anyone have any pointers? I'm getting very frustrated and this is happening to me on LT level. Surely you folks on higher levels know something I don't.

I guess you are not the best general.
You need to think. This is what made Manstein famous. His ability to improve tactics based on what he had.
And the answers is in your own post.
You had 3 jets. Ok. How do you use them?
Like you say enemy planes go for your SP arty, so give them air cover. Place that jet on top of the AP arty. Because nothing Soviet throw at you will stand a chanse against that jet. You have 3 Tiger II? What is the problem. Give them arty cover and let them deal with those IS2. Have your stukas damage the IS2. A 8 strenght IS2 is not as dangerous as the 10 strenght one. Take advantage of rivers if you are defending. An IS2 stuck in the river is vulnerable.
And go for the kill. Have arty attack, stuka attack, King tiger attack, and when it retreats have another stuka slam it. BANG. One 10 str IS2 less.
Use your brain and think.

But basically, not everyone is a good general. Most are morons and play like idiots.
And to me, this seems like all the "generals" that whined that Bagration was to hard, because they couldnt charge the overwhelming red army head on. So it ended with a nerf in the map. Replaced IS2 with T-34-85 so that any idiot could succeed.
Work on your tactics, find your weaknesses, and improve.

Air cover is gold.
The only real threat against your Tiger2 is IS2. So use them to provide cover for other forces.

Personally i can take out a IS2 with PzIV because i slam the IS2 with artillery, TAC's, and then attack with tanks. Why is it so hard for everyone else.

[TheGrayMouser]

I counted 6 insults to players at large in the above post, or did I miss any?

[Shrike]

I'd say that's about right. Pretty pathetic coming from someone who's a self-avowed cheat code user to get the extra difficulty levels.

[Ranta]

well, you need not be any good to win the last scenarios, so the point of using some brain is obsolete...

if you (tigerIII) claim that it takes skill to covert anything into king tigers and just wait the offensive out... great.

the point in this scenarios is rather that you can say goobye to a big part of your core army (through loss or through conversion to tigers), one just has to accept that.

[evan748]

I've been playing on lower difficulty settings because, well, I like winning...lol I planned on raising it once I gained more skill but now that I'm in the later scenerios I dunno. I mean, it suddenly got ridiculously hard!

Last night I was playing the Lake map and had 3 jets, 2 stukas, 1 strat bomber, 3 Tiger IIs, 3 panthers, 4 arty pieces, 2 scouts and rest infantry. All 4 stars or over and maxed overstrength. I deployed them in a cautious stance approaching the two closest objectives and decided to take it nice and slow. Before I knew it the red army bombers took out my SP Arty and a hundred IS2's and other armor overwhelmed me. Oh, and my infantry was eliminated even though they were dug-in in the hills and forest.

So I tried it again, this time trying to lure their forces out and clear them before going on the offensive. That didn't work either. Every turn I was overwhelmed and had to watch all my "pet" units get cleared from the board. Very frustrating. On the third try I managed to save half of my forces but lost because I ran out of turns and I wasn't even close to taking two objectives.

So, does anyone have any pointers? I'm getting very frustrated and this is happening to me on LT level. Surely you folks on higher levels know something I don't.

Late game (specially defensive) maps require a lot of heavy tanks. Even Panthers dont do well against late war Russian and some American/British tanks.

You had the right idea on your second try though just not enough heavy armor (TigerII, Jagdtiger, Elephant). For the lake map let the soviets assault your heavy tanks (i would say at least 2 groups of 3-4 heavy tanks with arty support and at least one AA unit each) and only move forward when you have destroyed most. I also found the AI sometimes fails to give his units a retreat hex, take note of this if it happens and choose that tank to attack to force it to surrender.

Dont think because the IS2 is the toughest enemy tank that you have to deal with it first. Just make sure to place your heavy tanks closer to it... EG: shoot up a weaker soviet SPgun with your TigerII then move the TigerII next/closer to the IS2 to keep it from your panthers. Deal with the worst soviet armor when they are low on ammo. Note a lot of Heavy tanks have a lot more armor but not much/any more attack.

Your air force is probably better on the defensive just picking off low strength(damaged from your AA) or un-escorted enemy planes. Tactical bombers late war are annoying, attacking most U.S tanks results in 50/50 damage to a top tier FW. Again as mentioned earlier the heavy SP guns carry very little ammo so strat bombers can deplete it fast.

The defensive late war maps are a slug match between Heavy armor with most other units given a (far) back seat.

Help this advice helps.
- Evan -

[edahl1980]

I'd say that's about right. Pretty pathetic coming from someone who's a self-avowed cheat code user to get the extra difficulty levels.

I removed the difficulties and earned them by not using cheat codes.
There was a big post about this a while back.
But thanks for paying attention.

[edahl1980]

well, you need not be any good to win the last scenarios, so the point of using some brain is obsolete...

if you (tigerIII) claim that it takes skill to covert anything into king tigers and just wait the offensive out... great.

the point in this scenarios is rather that you can say goobye to a big part of your core army (through loss or through conversion to tigers), one just has to accept that.

Converting everything into heavy shit doesnt take skill
Winning what you have takes skill
I made an AAR of Bagration before they nerfed the map and turned all the IS2 into T-34's.
Then i did it with 2 king tigers, 1 jagdpanther, 1 elephant, 2 panthers, 3 PzIVJ and a Recon 232? vehicles.
That was my second go at Bagration simply because i couldnt believe all the pissing and moaning about the map being so hard.

It's all about "how" you play.
If you charge head on, of course you will get stomped. Your not supposed to in 1944.
Germany is losing the war.
If it's a defensive scenario, then atleast think defense.

[Tarrak]

I'd say that's about right. Pretty pathetic coming from someone who's a self-avowed cheat code user to get the extra difficulty levels.

I removed the difficulties and earned them by not using cheat codes.
There was a big post about this a while back.
But thanks for paying attention.

No matter what you did and did not it doesn't give you the right to insult others. Reread your own post and reconsider it. It may be possibly a language problem, i do not know if english is your native language but it sounds really insulting and patronizing. Even if you think you are better then most others, even if it maybe really is the case, rubbing it straight into someone else face like that is still considered at least impolite.

[El_Condoro]

The OP was asking for advice and not a diatribe about how good other players are or aren't. It's certainly impolite, to say the least, to use terms like 'moron' and 'idiot' when referring to players in general ('most'). An opening such as 'you're obviously not the best general' also wreaks of arrogance and is unhelpful.

There is some good advice in these posts but the insults don't add anything. Let's get back to giving constructive advice.

[edahl1980]

You guys are right. I was being a dick.
Life sucks right now. Sorry to OP.

[irjebiv]

No worries TigerIII, I'd imagine a master of this game would be frustrated with those who aren't getting it after a point.

I appreciate all the great replies and advice. I restarted a campaign last night in order to pay closer attention to my core build. I'm giving more attention to strat bombers and artillery for now and will work towards increasing my armor as I go. As for playstyle I started parking my fighters over vulnerable targets (arty, bombers) and it seemed to keep their airforces off me. I was just used to gaining air superiority early on and not worrying about defense much.

I do have some additional questions though.

1. Do all anti-aircraft guns convert to anti-tank or is that only applicable to the 88?
2. Is it smart to have all towed arty? I thought I read that in an AAR.
3. What is the benefit of Tank Destroyers? Is the rule of thumb to have the best tanks and only revert to TDs when prestige is short?
4. I also read that the only good infantry worth having are Pioneers. That true or is it better to have a mix?
5. I noted that some said to include AA in the battle groups. I don't see the benefits of losing a core slot for a unit that only does such small damage to attacking aircraft. Perhaps that's another prestige call if you can't afford another fighter?
6. Lastly, I've seen a lot of post saying to take airfields with airborne early on in scenerios. Seems when I try that they get beat up and fail their objectives.

Thanks again for all the great advice.

[Tarrak]

1. It only apply to the 88.
2. Well it depends a bit on the preference. Towed artillery is vulnerable on the move and harder to bring into position when compared to self propelled artillery but it carry a lot more ammo. I personally prefer to have a mix between towed and self propelled artillery. Early in the war i tend to have two towed artillery and two sturmpanzers. Later on i tend to end with around 2-3 towed and 4-5 self propelled.
3. I would say generally yes. As you are mostly limited by core slots a tank tend to offer more per core slot.
4. Well Pioneers got the advantage of ignoring entrenchments which can be a nice bonus but they are a lot more expensive then normal infantry. This reflects not only in the initial purchase costs but as well in the replacements costs. The grenadiers have a bit better combat values then pioneers and the standard Wehrmacht infantry gives you one more movement which can come in handy especially in movement restricting terrain. I personally tend to use mostly grenadiers and only have around two pioneers for attacking special heavy entrenched points. I am quite sure all other combinations have their merits too.
5. Well in the defensive scenarios AA may be an alternative but on the offense i personally rather get more fighters and gain air superiority.
6. You want to have at least two airborne units working together, maybe even three. If you only have one at a city the enemy is still able to buy enough replacements for his defending unit. Two units near an enemy unit cut down their reinforcements to minimum, three stop it totally from reinforcing. A key to airborne attacks behind enemy lines is to move your airborne troops in a way so that the AI do not spot them. If the AI spots your units on the way it tends to buy a lot of units around the cities and you are facing a lot opposition. If you surprise the AI you often only face one unit defending it. The death of airborne attacks is enemy armor tho. Early in the war the tanks are weak enough so you can deal with them but late in the war you airborne units have nearly no chance to win unless you manage to lure the tank into close terrain but even then you are looking at heavy casaulties.

[edahl1980]

I'm giving more attention to strat bombers and artillery for now and will work towards increasing my armor as I go. As for playstyle I started parking my fighters over vulnerable targets (arty, bombers) and it seemed to keep their airforces off me. I was just used to gaining air superiority early on and not worrying about defense much.

I do have some additional questions though.

1. Do all anti-aircraft guns convert to anti-tank or is that only applicable to the 88?
2. Is it smart to have all towed arty? I thought I read that in an AAR.
3. What is the benefit of Tank Destroyers? Is the rule of thumb to have the best tanks and only revert to TDs when prestige is short?
4. I also read that the only good infantry worth having are Pioneers. That true or is it better to have a mix?
5. I noted that some said to include AA in the battle groups. I don't see the benefits of losing a core slot for a unit that only does such small damage to attacking aircraft. Perhaps that's another prestige call if you can't afford another fighter?
6. Lastly, I've seen a lot of post saying to take airfields with airborne early on in scenerios. Seems when I try that they get beat up and fail their objectives.

Thanks again for all the great advice.

I ignore strat bombers and go with stukas only.
Be cautious in the beginning of a round.
1. Dont send your stukas out bombing without interceptors protecting them.
2. Either keep an 88 or a fighter defending artillery. I usually mix towed art with a 88. And the 88 comes real handy early on the game. And its not a liability later either if used correctly.

As for your questions.
1. Only the 88, and this makes the 88 valuable. For me its AA untill i got air superiority, then its AT afterwards.
2. I only have 1 towed arty now. Rest is SPart. Wurfrahmen kicks ass.
3. Benefit. Cheap. Jagdpanthers are fast and good for attacking. Elephant is good for defending. and jagdpanthers are cool. I loved the one in BoB destroying all the Shermans and kromwells.
4. Pioneers are good for attacking cities. But expensive. Depends on your playstyle. Personally i also have brigde engineers, they kick ass for defending, in maps like bagration. Also, if you plan accordingly you can cross a river where the enemy dont expect it and unleash hell with tanks behind enemy lines. Sometimes a well planned attack can overtake a good fortified town in 1-2 turns if things go as planned. Especially on Stalingrad a bridge engineer comes handy when going for the art on the other side of the river.
5. AA is good for protecting your art. And an 88 is more than capable of handing out punishment to any armor coming its way, perhaps with the exception of a Stalin or Pershing.
6. I always have airborne units that in offensive maps can move from one front to another quickly where needed, and in defensive maps can reinforce where needed. I have 3 of them. 1 is a waste, 3 can make an impact.

Also, use recon vehicles, they can sneak in behind enemy lines and attack for example artillery. And in addition they have good spotting. I have 2 that always stay one hex behind the tank core.

One last thing. Before deploying. Look at the map. Make a plan and stick to it. But always keep a backup plan also.
Remember what Guderian said. Dont spread your fingers when punching tighten your fist. Dont keep one tank here, and one there. Keep them together and make kills. Spearhead through the enemy lines.

[Ranta]

I would highly recomment having at last 1 good strat bomber
-it kicks ass in "Naval" scenarios
-if experianced it may draw the biggest part of a units ammo. Very valuable on key parts of your attack / defense (e.g. the pesky fortifikation in brest - and others)

[edahl1980]

I would highly recomment having at last 1 good strat bomber
-it kicks ass in "Naval" scenarios
-if experianced it may draw the biggest part of a units ammo. Very valuable on key parts of your attack / defense (e.g. the pesky fortifikation in brest - and others)

That i will support.
A Ju-88 comes handy when destroying naval vessels.

[edahl1980]

And i do not agree that TAC is ineffective against Soviet armor late in the game. Ju87G kicks ass. And by then they will have 3-4 stars, whichs makes them very helpful.