Please vote: Allied Atlantic escort requirement

[Peter Stauffenberg]

We've also noticed that the value for the Atlantic escort requirement regarding the size of the convoys is probably too low. If you have 3 DD's and 1 BB then you have enough escorts for all convoys and that's probably not right.

It also doesn't take into consideration the increased convoy sizes as the game progresses. E. g. you would have needed more escorts for a 150 PP convoy than for a 15 PP convoy.

Please vote on the following.

/* Allied escorts needed in the Atlantic. The sum of the BB's, DD's and CV's must be equal to or higher to the */
/* value for not having an impact on convoy size. Convoy size is multiplied with the actual size divided by the number */
/* if the actual size is less than the number */
ALLIED_ESCORTS_NEEDED_IN_ATLANTIC 10 /* This number of escorts needed for no negative impact on convoy size */
BB_ESCORT_VALUE 1 /* Value as escort per unit */
DD_ESCORT_VALUE 3 /* Value as escort per unit */
CV_ESCORT_VALUE 3 /* Value as escort per unit */

The western Allies start in the Atlantic with: UK: 3 BB's, 3 DD's, 1 CV, 1 sub. France: 1 BB

Each convoy will be of size about 20-30. So maybe we could use a formula to how big total the convoys can get like this.
Each BB supports 10 points, each DD 20 points and each CV 30 points.
So the Allies can max support 3*10 + 3*20 + 1*30 + 1*10 (French) = 130 convoy points. If you start losing ships you will notice that your convoys will get smaller. When France surrenders you lose 10 points and drop to 120. So that means convoys of max 120 (average of 40 each). If you don't build more escorts you won't get bigger convoys.

Let's say we are in 1942. Convoys will then be about 100-110 PP's in size each and that's 300-330 in total.

Britain will have maybe 4 BB'2, 6 DD's and 3 CV's. USA will have 3 BB's, 4 DD's and 2 CV's. That means a total of:
7*10 + 10 * 20 + 5 * 30 = 420. That's more than enough to get max convoy sizes, but if you send a big force into the Med then you might suffer. E. g. if you send a strike force of 3 BB's, 2 DD's and 2 CV's to the Med you drop by 140 and then you're down to 280. Then your convoy max size might suffer.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Making such a change means the Allies can't afford to lose naval ships without replacing losses or their convoys will suffer.

I think the main reason Morris is still in the game against Supermax is that all his convoys are getting home at full strength with no subs attacking them. He doesn't have enough naval units to escort them properly, but still gets all PP's home.

With the above suggested rule then his convoys would be smaller and he would have needed to protect his surface ships better than he does.

The major objection to adding such a rule is that you might defeat the sub threat and still need to use lots of escorts to get big convoys. That doesn't make sense. If the subs are sunk then you shouldn't suffer big convoy losses.

So maybe we should count the number of sub steps at sea in the Atlantic and multiply the number by 3 and use that for the max number of points possible to lose from not having enough escorts. E. g. Germany has 6 subs and a total of 51 steps. That means the max drop can be 153 points. Late in the war Germany might have only 2 subs and e. g. 15 steps. Then the max drop is only 45.

Late in the war the Allies will usually not need a lot of ships in the Med so they can sail to the Atlantic to do escort duty or support invasions.

[Morris]

No , it is reasonable but it is not necessary for the present game . If we really change so ,it will make Axis sub too powerful , because Allies will have no courage to do the escort . Since they can not afford the lost of the warship . The game is almost balance now without this change .

[Peter Stauffenberg]

If we don't do that then we might look at the requirement of just 10. Just having 3 DD's and 1 BB to get max convoy size is suitable for the early war, but later it becomes irrelevant. Especially after USA joins the Allies. So maybe the requirement would be a function of the number of subs at sea.

One way to do it is to let the requirement number be 3 * number of subs. So with 6 subs you need 18 points. That's 6 DD's.

[zechi]

I really like the idea, but could you clarify if the convoy sizes will also become bigger? The numbers you stated seem from my point of view higher then in my games. For example a convoy in 1939 has rarely 20-30 Points, but often less then 20 points or I'm missing something?

Furthermore, it would be really nice if the number of necessary ships would be shown somewhere in the game, so that you do not have to calculate by yourself if your Atlantic force is big enough or not.

Cheers Zechi

[gerones]

I vote yes. It is an effective way of avoiding naval blob strategies.

As Zechi says would be very useful to have an information about this the same way that it is for current elite or para units.

[pk867]

This is getting back to a logistical game and not just playing.

The numbers for convoys are averages and My experience has been that they are on the low side and you may get large ones

but few maybe 4 to 5 per game. This is mudding up the water so to speak.

What exactly is broken? This was fine until we tweaked the Atlantic / Med quotas and that kept the game balanced so far.

Maybe looked at after we get out the patch (ie 2.1) which we thought was going to be in 2 months now it is at 6 months.

We have had the curent in place with the playtesters for almost a year and not a peep..


<end>

[PionUrpo]

If the escort req. is too small why not keep it simple, for example, by adding yearly to this ALLIED_ESCORTS_NEEDED_IN_ATLANTIC 10

say +3 (or +6 or what ever feels right) per year? IMO No need for whole new system just tweak the old one.

[rkr1958]

This is getting back to a logistical game and not just playing.

I agree with Paul that we don't need to complicate this.

I vote yes. It is an effective way of avoiding naval blob strategies.

I'm not following this ... what naval blob strategy? I thought the issue was that there were to few allied ships in the Atlantic.

Now stepping back and taking a look at what the issue is, which is what should be the impact of having too few allied escorts in the Atlantic. Well this would only historically be an issue if the Germans exploited this. To model this, what if we forget about reducing convoy size. What if we increased the damage from axis sub and naval attacks against convoys. Let's say give DD's and CV's a score of 3 and BB's a score of 1. If the allies have 15 or more points in the Atlantic then damage is normal. But below 15 sub and naval attacks against convoys score

damage = 1 + (15-score)/5) * (normal damage roll)


In this way, the axis player has to actively respond to the absence of allied escorts to exploit this.

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Counting naval units in the Atlantic has one major flaw and that is we don't actually know that the naval units were used as escorts. E. g. naval units being used to give supply to an Overlord invasion are counted as well.

So maybe you should let the sub get damage bonus if the convoy it attacks is not escorted (i. e. a surface naval unit adjacent to the escort). We can have a simple rule like this.

No escorts at all: Convoy damage = normal damage * 1.5
Only 1 escort: Convoy damage = normal damage * 1.2
2+ escorts: Normal damage

To not make escorts too exposed to damage at their spawn points (since the escorts can't be adjacent on the first turn) we can count each friendly controlled land hex adjacent to the convoy as one escort.

This means that it becomes more risky to send convoys across the Atlantic unescorted. Early in the war the Allies don't have many escorts so some convoys are sent unescorted. Those are usually sunk anyway. Now the sinking will be a bit faster.

What do you think?

[gerones]

I´m reluctant to increase sub damage to convoys no matter they are unescorted. The game needs abstractions and if the allies have a significant naval presence in the Atlantic this should be enough no matter the naval units are performing escorting duties or not.

What it would have some consequences is to empty the Atlantic Ocean of allies ships to focus in the Med. This shouldn´t be allowed without including some penalties. So I really prefer the first proposal of reducing the size of the convoy depending on the number of allied escorts in the Atlantic.

[rkr1958]

Counting naval units in the Atlantic has one major flaw and that is we don't actually know that the naval units were used as escorts. E. g. naval units being used to give supply to an Overlord invasion are counted as well.

So maybe you should let the sub get damage bonus if the convoy it attacks is not escorted (i. e. a surface naval unit adjacent to the escort). We can have a simple rule like this.

No escorts at all: Convoy damage = normal damage * 1.5
Only 1 escort: Convoy damage = normal damage * 1.2
2+ escorts: Normal damage

To not make escorts too exposed to damage at their spawn points (since the escorts can't be adjacent on the first turn) we can count each friendly controlled land hex adjacent to the convoy as one escort.

This means that it becomes more risky to send convoys across the Atlantic unescorted. Early in the war the Allies don't have many escorts so some convoys are sent unescorted. Those are usually sunk anyway. Now the sinking will be a bit faster.

What do you think?

I like it; but what about upping the damage:

No escorts at all: Convoy damage = normal damage * 2
Only 1 escort: Convoy damage = normal damage * 1.5
2+ escorts (or turn that the convoy was spawned): Normal damage

[Peter Stauffenberg]

The I think the suggestion by Pionurpo is a good one.

ALLIED_ESCORTS_NEEDED_IN_ATLANTIC 8 /* This number of escorts needed for no negative impact on convoy size */
ESCORT_NEEDED_INCREASE_PER_YEAR 2 /* The number of needed escorts increase by this number each year after 1939 */
BB_ESCORT_VALUE 1 /* Value as escort per unit */
DD_ESCORT_VALUE 3 /* Value as escort per unit */
CV_ESCORT_VALUE 3 /* Value as escort per unit */

This means the escort value needed 1939: 8
This means the escort value needed 1940: 10
This means the escort value needed 1941: 12
This means the escort value needed 1942: 14
This means the escort value needed 1943: 16
This means the escort value needed 1944: 18
This means the escort value needed 1945: 20

[Peter Stauffenberg]

Or should we keep it simple and set the value to 12.

[amcdonel]

I vote for increasing values - just start at 10 instead of 8.

[zechi]

I wonder why the necessary escort value should be highest, when the German will be usually weakest (1945). From my point of view the escort value should be linked with the current Axis SUBs roaming the Atlantic. Otherwise it does not make any sense at all. Why don't we just say the Allies need an escort valued equal to the Axis SUBs *3 in the Atlantic, i.e. each Axis SUB is worth 3 point. The German start with 3 SUBs in the Atlantic in 1939, i.e. the escort value will be 9. In 1940 Axis will have perhaps 5 SUBs, escort value will 15.

In 1941-1943 the Axis SUB presence will normally be at its peak (usually 6-8 SUBs roaming the Atlantic), which is realistic as in these years the Battle for the Atlantic were also the hardest for the Allies. In 1944-1945 the Allies should be capable of getting control on the SUB threat.

Just my 2 cents

Zechi

[Peter Stauffenberg]

This is why I suggested that the escort points needed could be like this: 4 * number of subs

[PionUrpo]

Couldn't that lead to some crazy numbers in case of Axis "Western Strategy" and Italian subs starting to swarm in the Atlantic?

Other than that, I think it's better than my idea.

[zechi]

Couldn't that lead to some crazy numbers in case of Axis "Western Strategy" and Italian subs starting to swarm in the Atlantic?

Other than that, I think it's better than my idea.

If the Axis heavily invest in SUBs the threat becomes of course greater, but the Allies can counter this by investing in DD, so I do not think that this is really a problem. It may be possible that the Axis will gain the upper hand if they sink several British/US naval units or open the Med for the Italians so they may enter the Atlantic. Nevertheless any heavy investment in SUBs by the Axis will lead to a weaker Barbarossa/Eastern Front, so this should be fine.

[metolius]

I'd like to propose a simpler solution, which is simply that subs that attack a convoy that is 'un-escorted' -- in other words, does NOT have a naval unit adjacent when the attack occurs -- are not 'revealed' -- that is to say, they don't become visible.

The effect will be to force the Allies to have a DD, at least, with most convoys, and it will give the Germans easy targets if the Allies choose to not bother with escorted.

A refinement could be to have the sub ALSO revealed IF there is an air unit that is in range – in other words, that can 'see' the hex where the u-boat is.

This is simpler than the whole convoy formula-thing, and essentially sticks to the current game dynamics.