Carbine, Pistol armed Horse

[hazelbark]

Any one been able to get good use out of these folks?

Seems to me that they don't do well versus enemy mounted.

Do you minimize them, take them in 6s if you can.

What are your success stories with them?

[Scrumpy]

Biggest problem with them is they can't evade, as I discovered to my chagrin the other week. They are ok if that's all you can get as support for superior troops, or for trying to hold off Light troops or dragoons, otherwise don't expect them to do much as even their shooting ability is only a 1/3 chance of hitting anything.

[quackstheking]

Thoughts:-

Use them defensively combined with Commanded Shot to hold up one wing. They are cheap, boost the Battlegroup count and with the Commanded Shot ignore one -POA. The combined shooting with the CS will force Cavalry to close with them.

Use them to try to get round flanks and threaten Flanks. Useful for running down Medium Foot in the open where armour doesn't matter.

Lastly they are a cheap option to keep in reserve behind the infantry line and provide a +1 support (with a 9" range) for all the average and superior foot in front of them and then to advance to exploit any gaps that the foot cause in the enemy line.

I try to keep them clear of one on one's with horse or determined horse as they don't last long!!

Don

[viperofmilan]

Dan,

I use the average armored variety in my Parliamentarian list. Fielded with commanded shot they do just fine as often as not. The biggest drawback, at least with the ECW variety, is that they are average while most of their mounted opponents are superior. Over the course of a drawn-out melee, this can do you in. I have had spectacular successes, and equally spectacular collapses.

I also suggest deploying them in mass. I usually use 3 BGs of armoured, average, carbine, melee pistol with 2 BGs of supporting MF commanded shot in between. In this compact formation you can generate 13 shooting dice, and protected files are no worse than even at impact and melee.

Kevin

[Scrumpy]

Of course Gentlemen use pistols and charge valiantly at the enemy, not skulking like mere webellious twoopers ignobly shooting at their betters.

God Save The King !!!

[countadam]

I have been wondering about these guys myself. They are compulsory in many TYW lists – the period my group is building armies for.

I expect they will be useful in the end game or for exploiting gaps made by charges, routs or auto breaks. They are cheap and are effective enough in a flank charge situation. Good against skirmishers too.

If your style is one that relies on fewer, higher quality units, they may not be ideal. IMO better suited to a larger more mobile force.

Paul

[Blathergut]

Have always used them, in Parliamentarian forces and Protestant German forces. Usually in 4 paks. Dead.'s been running them in 6paks and they are a total pain in the derriere! Definitely one of the more enjoyable troop types to use on the battlefield!

[hazelbark]

Have always used them, in Parliamentarian forces and Protestant German forces. Usually in 4 paks. Dead.'s been running them in 6paks and they are a total pain in the derriere! Definitely one of the more enjoyable troop types to use on the battlefield!

Reluctant to listen to one of the fur northerners on anything besides hockey andd polar bears, but how?

Does he put them into the line?

The 6s I get as the don't autobreak so fast. Does he use armoured or unarmoured etc?

[Blathergut]

The 6paks come in both flavours (early TYW I think requires some unarmoured). They run 3 wide and just barrell up to anything, shooting with 4 dice. It's the extra die that Deadtorius likes. If they score a disruption, then in they go. The 6pak is able to absorb a base loss easily and still get the 4 dice for shooting. On both sides they are a troop type that can do very well or die horribly suddenly. That's what makes them interesting to me. Any horse without pistols has to get into them quick. So, like when I run them in the English list, the Royalist horse suddenly has to make that choice without having the luxury of waiting for the right moment. I prefer two 4paks together (or 2 BGs of whatever) to force him to split his dice up.

[Three]

I can see the potential, but every time I've used them they have become a speed-bump in short order. I used them as has been suggested with Commanded Shot, in big blocks, so CS/CaCa/CS/CaCa/CS - 12 shooting dice. Every file counts as Protected, makes not the slightest bit difference. Last time out they got done over by average, armoured, light lancers, time before that they were out-shot by a standard 6 base P&S unit.

They should work, but don't seem to for me.

[hazelbark]

I can see the potential, but every time I've used them they have become a speed-bump in short order. I used them as has been suggested with Commanded Shot, in big blocks, so CS/CaCa/CS/CaCa/CS - 12 shooting dice. Every file counts as Protected, makes not the slightest bit difference. Last time out they got done over by average, armoured, light lancers, time before that they were out-shot by a standard 6 base P&S unit.

They should work, but don't seem to for me.

That seems like a luck distribution problem to lose to average lancers.

[Three]

I can see the potential, but every time I've used them they have become a speed-bump in short order. I used them as has been suggested with Commanded Shot, in big blocks, so CS/CaCa/CS/CaCa/CS - 12 shooting dice. Every file counts as Protected, makes not the slightest bit difference. Last time out they got done over by average, armoured, light lancers, time before that they were out-shot by a standard 6 base P&S unit.

They should work, but don't seem to for me.

That seems like a luck distribution problem to lose to average lancers.

Doesn't seem, is - my ability to turn advantage into disaster is legendary My id is based on my average score on 2D6

[deadtorius]

I usually team mine up with a unit of Kuirassier. They go up and shoot it out with the dragoons, or pop rounds at the enemy horse, the Kuirassier are there to intercept or just charge in when the going is good. I have used them successfully against Protestant Kuirassier and also by rolling them up to shoot at enemy pike and shot, while my own Tercio's roll up and add some more shooting dice before going in. If the enemy Pike and shot is disrupted you get your pistols in melee and can even out the die score You have a chance, very small but it is still a chance. Still better to let your own foot deal with them though.
They have also managed to overrun artillery once I think.
If they can survive Blatherguts anti-horse cannon balls they usually work out ok for me, but not always. Then I have to rely on the tercios. I have been using the early 30YW German Catholics so no commanded shot for me, but they have not always worked out for Blathergut so far with his Protestant forces either

[jonphilp]

I have been using the same combination as deadtorius using both early & late TYW German catholics. This combination can cause problems for your opponent. If you time it right and line up correctly the opposing horse can face a round or two of shooting before facing hand to hand combat with the Kuiriassier. On one glorious occasion a unit of Bandellier Reiter disrupted a unit of ECW determined horse, then whilst they were in melee with some Kuirassierrs managed to make a succesful flank attack , break that unit and afterwards make two further flank attacks on infantry battlegroups in both cases breaking them. On other occassions they have not hit a barn door but they can make a useful screen for "better" horse units if faced by massed artillery as favoured by our Scottish covenater general who rolls a high number of high dice.

[stecal]

My thinking is to combine them with support shooting from LH carbines who usually angle in from a flank. That way you will be throwing 5-6 dice and have a decent chance to cause CTs & deaths. The carbine horse can deal with a weakened & disrupted opponent in combat afterwards. Oh, and bring lucky dice!

[hazelbark]

My thinking is to combine them with support shooting from LH carbines who usually angle in from a flank. That way you will be throwing 5-6 dice and have a decent chance to cause CTs & deaths. The carbine horse can deal with a weakened & disrupted opponent in combat afterwards. Oh, and bring lucky dice!

even better LH w/bow so you get more hits but no plus 2 on death die. Whoops. Just unveiled the secret army.

[deadtorius]

I have used them with LH as well. Early on the LH did well but then Blathergut remembered how I was using them and has figured out useful counter plans against my LH. I like the LH since they can run away if they get charged, but are quite capable of shooting it out with dragoons or sniping at enemy pike and shot and preventing double moves.
Now if only my artillery was lead by a competent covenanter it might hit a bit more often

[countadam]

I used 2 units of these guys (ave, unarm, carbine, M.Pistol) on Friday in my Late Imperial Spanish list. There was also 2 units of arm determined horse (1 ave and 1 sup).

I unit of the carbine horse moved quickly on a flank as part of a division with the 2 units of determined horse. The unit provided rear support for a couple of shooting rounds. When the 2 units of determined horse moved to engage targets on the flank, the carbine horse acted as a hinge for the rest of the line. They eventually chased off a unit of light horse and would have gone in for a flank charge on the end of the foot line had the game lasted longer.

The 2nd unit was on the other flank. The flank had been shortened by a major water feature. I quickly moved foot to the flank from deployment and had the carbine armed horse positioned between the foot and the wet. My opponent had 4 units of average armored horse on this flank. The carbine horse received a change to hold the position whilst my foot shot and then fought the remaining 3 units.

The carbine horse were a POA down at both impact and melee. They held for 2 turns by which time the damage was done. If the game had continued, the carbine horse would have been lost.

Summary based on 1 game with them - For the price they are useful but need to be carefully managed to stay alive. If they could evade, they would be much more useful.

Paul

[stecal]

Summary based on 1 game with them - For the price they are useful but need to be carefully managed to stay alive. If they could evade, they would be much more useful.

Paul

This is the evil thing I learned about Late Ottoman carbine armed cavalry -- they can all evade in a single rank.

[hazelbark]

Summary based on 1 game with them - For the price they are useful but need to be carefully managed to stay alive. If they could evade, they would be much more useful.

Paul

This is the evil thing I learned about Late Ottoman carbine armed cavalry -- they can all evade in a single rank.

Yes this past weekend a superior one shot down to frag and then routed two units one of reitiers and one of kurassiers.

Of course a unit German of foot supported by kuraissier shot the elite qapu kulu to autobreak !