Editor lack of information

[jjmcnick]

I am experiencing difficulty in using the “editor” due to the almost complete lack of any written instructions other than the information pop-ups which are hardly self- explanatory. This is most disappointing especially as the game manual stresses the scope for “modding”. It would seem that the system is in theory designed to be simple, but the lack of information is a serious omission.
I have set out a number of simple basic questions below. I have attempted to anticipate the possible response in some instances and on most occasions a simple “yes” or “no” will suffice; however any additional explanatory information would be appreciated, especially if you feel that I have failed to understand a crucial concept. I thank you in anticipation of what I assume will be a lucid and clear response. It has taken me several hours to put together these questions and I look forward to your reply with eagerness.
Reference: Custom AI Datalog
The only information in the "AI Team Help" states that "Default AI Behaviour Aggression" can be combined by adding. It then lists a series of traits under numbers 2 4 8 16 32 64
Q1 I assume that the instruction "adding" is literal in a mathematical sense ie if you opted for traits "Keep Grouped" (2) and "Avoid Enemy When Moving" (4) this would result in a total of 6, thus conferring both these traits?
The Datalog itself then shows the following:
AI Team (can be cycled 0 through to 7.(call this Box A)
Aggression (can cycle from -minus figures to + figures, including 0 (no apparent limit on numbers). (Call this Box B)
Target AI Point (can cycle through 0 to 7). Call this Box C)
Mystery Box ??? (can cycle from negative to positive). (Call this Box D)
Q2 Assuming the answer to Q1 is "yes" (please correct if this is not so), where would I insert the value 6 in the Datalog? (Would this be Box B?)
Q3. The AI teams (0-7) can be cycled above.
Are the two traits selected above by using 6, then applied in default to all the 8 AI teams?
Q4 Alternatively, is it only applied to the team selected by cycling the "AI Team" number to a specific team (eg say team 0)?
Q5 If the situation as set out in Q4 applies am I correct in assuming that if I then use the "Default AI Behaviour Aggression" list again and this time select traits 16(seek and destroy) and 32 (use longer routes) for a total of 48, that by cycling the "AI Team" number to another team (say team 1) that this would give those traits to this team by inserting the number 48?
Q6 If "yes", where would I insert this value 48 in the Datalog?
Q7 If the answer to Q5 is yes, presumably all the possible 8 AI teams can thus be endowed with specific multi or single traits by combining or not combining the numbers. Is this correct?
Q8 If I don't wish to give any specific traits to some or all of the AI teams, is there a default setting and what default trait does it confer? How would one operate the default setting or is it automatic?
Q9 What do the negative numbers signify in Box B? This has caused me particular confusion as there is a complete lack of any explanation.
Q10 What do the positive numbers signify in Box B?
Q11 What does a setting of 0 signify in Box B?
Q12 What is the function of "Mystery Box" D. Again much confusion as its function cannot be determined.
Q13 Turning to “Victory Points Plugin”:
The information says it “allows you to activate and set up Victory POINT which ARE required to win the scenario”
The use of the word “Victory Point” is singular, but it appears that multiple Victory Point locations can be set up and up to 8 such locations can be designated. Is this correct?
Q14 If the answer to Q13 is yes, such Victory Point locations can then be changed to either: Side 0 or Side 1 by respectively using the “side ID for side 0” and “side ID for side 1” buttons on the main menu on left hand side of main screen. Note: obviously the national identities of side 0 and side 1 can be determined by scrolling through the options. However what is the purpose of a neutral flag placed on the map and would its presence effect the movement or other function of either the human or AI player?
Q15 On the main menu, can you explain how the “Toggle Deployment Mode” button works? I’ve pressed it on numerous occasions with no discernible response.
Q16 When using the function “Toggle AI to attack hostile VPs”, information says “flagged AI teams will attempt to capture the closest VP”. Presumably merely pressing the toggle button so that a symbol appears will give this instruction?
Q17 If a AI team is left unflagged will it merely defend, ie remain stationary for rest of the game?
Q18 Reverting back to Default AI Behaviour Aggression” list again, could you please explain:
i) What is “threat map” mentioned in function 32 (use longer route)? How does one operate it?
ii) A selection of 64 (stay dug in) and 16 (seek and destroy) would give a total of 82. These traits cancel each other out and presumably such combinations should be avoided? However if this combination was selected would a dug in unit set out to seek and destroy an enemy that approached it and then revert to a dug in mode after destroying the threat? Would it move back to its original dug in location?
iii) If an AI is given instructions to say capture all enemy VPs, would a sole selection of 16 (seek and destroy) produce the most aggressive response or is there a default or other setting that will produce a higher aggression state?
iv) Please re-confirm that my understanding of traits as set out in Q1 is correct? Example if I added (ignore tactical adviseability) 2(keep grouped) to 4,8,16.32,64 for a grand total of 136, would a team thus selected have all the traits conferred by the individual numbers?
FINAL ASPECTS
Q18 There seems to be no way to be the Axis human player. Is this correct?
Q19 The inability to confer unit identity names on units is a major omission. Are there any plans to enable this?
Q20 I’ve read that it is now possible to reverse tanks. How can this be done?
Q21 Re: “Random Enemy Plugin state that when the mission starts any NON-FIXED units in a team will be randomly purchased with the allocated points and all other team members removed” Presumably any FIXED units placed by the modder are totally unaffected? Presumably if if this function was turned off or the points set at zero, no FIXED units would be removed?
Thanking you in anticipation

[Merr]

jjmcnick,

That's alot of questions .... standby ...

Have you seen the BA tutorial Guide ... viewtopic.php?t=18286

That will explain a step-by-step for now.

[pipfromslitherine]

Hi jjmcnick

I'd suggest breaking up questions a little - it will make it easier to follow reply threads.

AI data

Yes, each team can make use of combinations of the various attributes. You use the arrow buttons to increase/decrease the numbers (SHIFT+ increases or decreases by 10 rather than 1). Negative numbers are not needed for aggression. You can combine aggression by adding, yes.

The last box in the dialog is for custom data. It is worth noting that there are no hard and fast explanations for this stuff because the AI is entirely customisable, so you could well be using the values for something else.

Toggle Deploy mode doesn't do anything in the editor. It allows the player to deploy their troops at the start of the mission.

The Victory Point plugin allows up to 8 VPs to be placed on the map. AI teams which are not toggled to attack the VPs will do whatever they are told in the AI data dialog.

The threat map is generated by the AI script and tells the AI where visible enemy units are and what their facing is. So making use of it means the AI will attempt to avoid the enemy and get behind them (for example).

You cannot combine contrary (seek and destroy and dug in) in the editor. If you want to have AI teams switch behaviours that would need to happen in the mission script.

Here is a link for how to allow the player to play as axis:

viewtopic.php?t=18140

We have no plans currently for individual unit names.

Tank reversing is a normal order in the current version. I'm not sure I understand the question.

Fixed units are not affected by the plugin. Note that the plugin is not used unless enabled.

Hopefully that is enough information to get you going. Again, I would suggest using a thread for each question going forward. It's both easier to go back and forth, and a little less intimidating for people to answer .

Cheers

Pip

[Merr]

A1 ... Yes.
A2-A11 ... Hopefully the tutorial guide answers that.
A12 ... The mystery box isn't used as far as I know.

A13 ... Yes.
- Set the VP ownership (at start of scenario).
- Place the VP.
- Use the "turn limit" to set the number of turns.
- Set the victory conditions for the human player.
- Set which AI teams aggressively will attack VP's.

A14 ... The flags and AI points are collocated. When the flag is hostile to the AI (player flag or neutral), the AI will move it's teams to that flag. Once the flag is captured by the AI, it will move along to the next flag, etc etc.

A15 ... The deployent button sets a switch ... when selected it allows you to redeploy your units at the beginning of the scenario.
A16 ... Yes.
A17 ... Not exactly. When you select the AI team to "attack hostile vp's" it used an aggression of 34. If the team isn't set to attack, it will default to the setting in the AI Dialog box .... So, if you didn't want team 7 to attack but wanted them to "seek and destroy" you wouldn't select that team to attack the hostile VP, and you would set the AI Dialog for team 7 (box B) to a value of 16.

A18 ... The threat map is a "snap shot" of the players units (known by the AI) and potential ambush tiles. You can see on your turn by looking for the symbol over the terrain, that is the ambush potential. Now, regarding combining unusual traits (duggin and seek and destroy, 64+16= 80) ... The logic flow in the AI.BSF looks at the what the trait is set for and it will tell the AI what to do, step-by-step. Basically, it might seek and destroy (if it meets that condition) or it will use the dug-in ... but it won't return to it's last dug-in position, more scripting is needed to tell the AI to do that. The trait (aggression value) is nothing more than a simple instruction ... If you create complicated values then it may not work at all and should be avoided.

A18 (you have two Q18's ) ... You can play the Axis ... Have you played the SLith Axis missions yet? If you want to play the Axis in a user created scenario, simply copy/paste that campaign from the SLitherine directory to your user/campaign folder, then open the BAM and see how it's done. The other files, like sideTXT and the icondds are needed to ensure you get the correct unit flag symbol (the little flag over the unit).

A19 ... Would be nice. It's possible right now but it takes alot of scripting ... very hard work.
A20 ... It's a unit action ... Click on your tank and move the cursor to the tile "behind" the tank ... you should see the reversed button as an option.
A21 ... Correct. The logic looks at "non-fixed" as "purchasable" units. Fixed units are unaffected.

Ok, hope that helps but I have some advice ...... The best way to see how it all works is to experiment ... The BA Tutorial should help and from that point you can try different stuff.

Rob

[Merr]

Pip,

Someday ..... You really need to update the enginedocsPDF and add more download links to the Modding page.

What I mean about updating the Modding page download links ...
- Add Junks Editor Tuturioal.
- Add the BA Tutorial.

Or, just update all the stuff into one package download.

There are way too many seperate links for this, that, and such.

So, put down your fruit (apple) and get back to the unhealthy meat-and-potatoes

All in good fun ... but seriously?

[pipfromslitherine]

Having voluminous documentation would definitely be a good plan. The problem is finding the time. Trying to even just get down all the tips, tricks, and even just new stuff as we add it is a project in itself .

I wonder if a wiki might work? Then people could add things as they come across them.

Cheers

Pip

[Merr]

Having voluminous documentation would definitely be a good plan. The problem is finding the time. Trying to even just get down all the tips, tricks, and even just new stuff as we add it is a project in itself .

I wonder if a wiki might work? Then people could add things as they come across them.

That might work .... AI Wars has a wiki ... but, making a wiki takes time too.

I volunteer Junk2Drive to take care of your documentation problems

For now, (to use a bandaid on a sucking chest wound ) you can simply combine all the stuff into one download link. Maybe Junk can do this or something that he feels would be more efficient.

You can't persuade the wife to help out, eh?

[junk2drive]

There are links to some things on my Manual Additions sticky. Guess we need a better way.

[jjmcnick]

Thank you for the information. A simple addition of text in your Information pop-up explaing that Aggression traits are placed in Box B (see my Q2, which you didn't answer, see below*) and not in the Mystery Box D would have saved all this tedious Q and A routine. You really should attend to this.



*Re Unanswered Qs 2-11,The tutoral you referred me to is the one that shows the Matilda attacking the 88mm. I can't see how this answers my Qs 2-11, unless there is another tutorial? However the rest of the info you supplied enabled me to work out the answers myself.


Re Q18 (Axis Player) Sorry for having two Q18s incidentally.
Your A18 as to how to play as the Axis in a user created scenario is very unhelpful and assumes a degree of knowledge that I do not possess. I do not know how to "simply copy/paste" the campaign that you mention.


You refer to "BAM". What is this?


You mention files "like sideTXT and the icondds as being needed. All this is meaningless to novice computer operator who merely uses a computer for info and occasional strategy game playing, with modded scenario variation.


This game was purchased because I believed that a SIMPLE but precise set of information would be available in the editor mode. Clearly this is not the case. This is a pity.

[Merr]

*Re Unanswered Qs 2-11,The tutoral you referred me to is the one that shows the Matilda attacking the 88mm. I can't see how this answers my Qs 2-11, unless there is another tutorial? However the rest of the info you supplied enabled me to work out the answers myself.

Yes ... my fault, wrong link. In the Scenario Design Forum, there is an announcement sticky ...

Announcement: Template Campaign and Illustrated Tutorial Now Available!
link ... viewtopic.php?t=18286

Your A18 as to how to play as the Axis in a user created scenario is very unhelpful and assumes a degree of knowledge that I do not possess. I do not know how to "simply copy/paste" the campaign that you mention.

The best way to increase your knowledge on how to create scenario's is to look at a scenario (in the editor) that already exists.
wrt : "Simply copy/paste" ....
Navigate to the games main campaign folder ...
mine is C:\Program Files\Slitherine\Battlefield Academy\Battlefield Academy\Campaigns
You will see a folder called ... Slith_Axis_Missions
Right click on folder, and select copy.
Navigate to your user folder ...
mine is C:\Users\Rob\Documents\My Games\BBCBA\CAMPAIGNS
Right click inside the folder, and paste.
Now, you just "copy/pasted" that campaign into your user campaign.
Start the editor and select that campaign folder Slith_Axis_Missions
Open the scenario.

You refer to "BAM". What is this?

That is the file extension name of the map and other data ... scenario name.BAM

You mention files "like sideTXT and the icondds as being needed. All this is meaningless to novice computer operator who merely uses a computer for info and occasional strategy game playing, with modded scenario variation.

These are the files in the folder Slith_Axis_Missions that I mentioned above.

This game was purchased because I believed that a SIMPLE but precise set of information would be available in the editor mode. Clearly this is not the case. This is a pity.

What would have been "simplier" and more "precise" for you?

Believe me, I understand that scenario edititing isn't that simple ... but, if you can explain how it would be easier for you then they (slitherine) can make changes.

Rob

[pipfromslitherine]

I'm not sure what the confusion about aggression is. The box is labelled aggression, and the information popup talks about aggression values?

With regard to tutorials, I believe he is talking about the guides stickied at the top of the modding and scenario design forums, rather than the ingame tutorials.

I appreciate that ideally everything could be done using buttons and simple UI, but this isn't practical when dealing with the level of access that we give the modder to the game. You can build missions, direct the AI, use VPs and random units, all without leaving the editor. This is simple mission building, and the editor tutorials together with the editor guide document should help with these aspects.

To do more, such as changing the game sides, you will need to get your hands a little dirty. This is true of almost any game. Copying files or folders is going to be necessary if you want to make more comprehensive changes to the game. It is possible to do pretty much anything in the engine, add new units, change the orders that units can be given, rewrite the game model entirely - and some of the user mods do all these things - but this cannot really come under the aegis of the editor.

If you can give examples of both what specifically you are trying to do, and what specific information would help you to do it, then that helps us to target information and any additional help.

Cheers

Pip

[jjmcnick]

1) I refer to the comments by Rob and Pip asking "what would have been "simpler" and more "precise" .


2) Also the advice that "you will need to get your hands a little dirty......." (to deal with the change of human player to Axis) and as a corollory that if you wish to make more comprehensive changes to the game you will need to copy files and folders etc,


3) Also with the statement that "it is possible to do pretty much anything........but that such (extensive) changes "cannot come under the aegis of the editor"


STATEMENT
If you wish a achieve sales of this game and its new add on campaigns (France etc) you will need to address the follwing simple and precise points. Before naming them I would add the three following preambles:


a) This is a simple pure strategy game that offers extensive modding possibilities to persons who are literate in the complexities of computer operations.
However the vast majority of the public do not possess these skills and like myself have rudimentary knowledge from day to day use.


b) I am therefore resigned to only being able to do certain basic things in terms of modding, much as I would love to as you put it "add new units, change the orders of that unit and rewrite the game model entirely". I am unable to do this and do not feel that I should be forced to learn such extensive skills to play a game.




c) This is a game involving military units attacking other military units; in other words military strategy only. There are no other aspects (social, indusrial, political etc, see Civ IV for an example of a game that does). This sole military emphasis is why I bought the game. Given that the sole raison d'etre for the game is purely military strategy it would seem absolutely crucial in a modding mode to do the following without having to get one's hands dirty, as you put it:



a)NAMING UNITS
In a sole military strategy game the modder should be able to do this by being asked on the screen, or by clicking on the unit in some way to bring up a box to allow the modder's own name for his unit to be inserted by typing in the name.


b) NAMING PLACES
Again so crucial that VPs can be named to bring sense to a campaign. When placing a VP the player should be automatically given the option of typing in his name for the VP eg Tobruk, Alemein etc.



c) PLACING A SCRIPT ON THE MAP
In CIV IV hitting a couple of keys allows a tile to be named by typing in the name eg Halfaya Pass etc. The name can be deleted or changed at will. This method could also be used for naming VPs, instead of B.



d)HAVING OPTION OF PLAYING EITHER AXIS or ALLIES
This is so fundamental that it requires no amplification

SUMMARY
Other members of our Wargaming Association are waiting for some positive response to these points and many current and ex Servce personnel who are keen strategy players I am sure are interested.
We were avid fans of CIV IV/Beyond the Sword but have now abandoned this because of the unrealistic "stack of doom" rules. We eagerly awaited CIV V, which has no stacking allowed, but were dismayed by the shoddy quality of the game which has needed massive automatic patches to even play it. This led us to your game, which with a BBC logo seemed to be the answer. To have encountered all this confusion at outset and to find that the a), b), c) and d) points are not available as automatic is a major problem.

To summarise what we want to do is use our military knowledge of strategy to build our own authentic campaign maps using your excellent mapbuilder process (the original designers should be congratulated) and then place authentic military units to assault authentically named places. We do NOT want to change how your game works internally and would rely upon your skills to give the units available the appropriate characteristics. We most certainly do not feel that this is an unreasonable request and furthermore strongly believe that these truly basic ommissions and flaws in your game should be addressed by you by downloading automatic patches in the very near future.

There is a huge ex CIV IV following who are looking for a strategy game to play. The potential is vast for you to harness this group, but you do need to act now.
PS If you tell me that this is not possible because it would involve too much work, I will not trouble you again and will abandon attempts to adopt your game for our use.
PPS Would the BBC be interested in these comments?
PPS We still believe that the addition of a couple of explanatory lines of text and a simple example would have avoided any confusion in terms of adding Aggression characterisics. However this topic has now been closed.

I look forward to hearing from you and although pleased to a degree at the speed of your response would ask you to assess this request and deliberate before sending a too speedy reply.
Incidentally none of the above is personal. I do not wish to give any offence ie the comments are purely professional.

[pipfromslitherine]

No offence is taken - we are always happy to respond to any feedback and answer any questions.

As a developer, everything we do is generally a balance and a compromise. And this is true of the way in which modding and scenario editors are made to work. Our approach was to open up the full power of the engine to modders, along with details on how to use it. However, this flexibility does come at something of a price with regard to automating some aspects of the editing process. I appreciate that not everyone will agree with where we have drawn that line.

All of the features you suggest are possible, but some are just not part of our initial design for the game (naming of units - although this is on the wishlist, albeit at a low priority), while others would mean duplicating functionality that is used in the scripting language (placing text on the map). As a small team we have to balance every feature against the long list of desires that we have for the game, and their utility to the wider community.

Thank you for giving us details of what exactly you are trying to achieve. It does help in giving you details on how to do it.

I really think that you would be suprised how simple (for example) the process for playing as axis actually is. Everything other than copying a file, and then double clicking to edit it, is done inside the game. And once you being tinkering with things I am certain that you will see that most of the things described require no more expertise than it took to post your feedback.

With regard to placing text on the map, I would be happy to construct a simple template for you which you could then use to place them at the desired coordinates for a given mission. This would not be something as simple as you propose but, again, I think you would be suprised how simple the process actually is. In fact I think it likely that at least some of your community would become drawn in by the power offered by the system and begin to tinker and add more complex logic and behaviour to your scenarios. Please just let me know if this would be useful.

Cheers

Pip

[jjmcnick]

With reference to Pip's response of 27/10
From a personal point of view the template you mention would be very helpful and I would be able to use it.
As far as the community is concerned we need a uniform approach so that everyone ab initio can play the game without having to change or tinker with it. As we are talking about many potential players and purchasers at any one time you can understand why this is, as the games played would have different rules etc if individuals started to make ad hoc changes that were not standard (chaos would ensue).
Unfortunately I'm afraid that your game therefore does not fit our profile. As you consider these additions to be low priority it seems unlikely that we can use it, which is a pity. I will have to start searching for another replacement for the Civ games.
As duty calls, I will be away out of the UK in Malaysia so I cannot be reached for over 6 weeks.
Incidentally if at any time you do incorporate the changes as standard please advise me.

Thank you for your attempts to help. Please do send the template.
Regards
J

[Merr]

Take good care JJ ... I hope you find what you're looking for.

I don't have any specific recommendations as far as other games, however ...

You might have a look at the game collection over at Matrix Games ...
http://www.matrixgames.com/

There are many games that can be modded but you'll have to see for yourself.

Rob

[jjmcnick]

Hi Rob
Thank you for the good wishes.
One final point before departing, I've placed fixed units on editor map, but on pressing the delete key nothing happens. Can you kindly explain why and how to rectify this.
thanking you in advance
J

[Merr]

Hi Rob
Thank you for the good wishes.
One final point before departing, I've placed fixed units on editor map, but on pressing the delete key nothing happens. Can you kindly explain why and how to rectify this.
thanking you in advance
J

It's tricky ... I had the same problem myself ...

You have to hold the delete key, then (while still holding) left click on the unit.

If you haven't already ... You can "load" a unit by selecting it from the menu on the left, then clicking on the transport unit on the map. Also, you can load onto non-transport units (tanks) but I'm unsure if the game can handle non-transport units.

By the way ... There is a game here (not released yet) called Team Assault ... It allows modding where you rename units, skins and it looks promising ... I don't know if that's your cup-of-tea. There are links to the official website but the link here is ;
viewforum.php?f=135

Rob

[jjmcnick]

Hello Rob
Can you help please with the following:
1) Whilst playing my first game, that I have built via the editor process, how do I save the progress?. The only screen option is the "back" button on the top left corner of the screen.
When I press this I get the message "are you sure you wish to surrender...... and the options either "OK" (tick) or cancel (X).
I'm sure there must be something else, but I can't see how to do it.


On page 10 of the manual it says "You can save your progress during your turn on the Battlefield or from within the Scenario Selection screen. You cannot save during the enemy turn. When you exit the game your progress is also automatically saved." Because of this I pressed the OK option, assuming an automatic save, but when I tried to find find the save I couldn't find it.



2) Is there any way to delete redundant saves from the list?
Thank you
J

[junk2drive]

Press the Esc key, type a name in the box and click the save button.

[Merr]

2) Is there any way to delete redundant saves from the list?

There isn't a way in the game to delete saved games ... It's on the wish list. . I could tell you how to delete them manually but I don't think you want to go there ...

By the way ... Perhaps another suggestion for a game ...

Advanced Tactics ... another matrix game.
http://www.matrixgames.com/products/405 ... tics:.Gold

I don't have the gold version (yet) ... but, at the time when the original came out, I was looking for a game that had easy modding, and provided a little Civ feeling with just the combat. The graphics aren't wiz-bang like civ but I think the gold improves a lot. It's been out for several years as opposed to Battle Academy, which, is just an infant around 14 months ... BA's teeth are coming in, and it can be a little painful for some modders

I think Advanced Tactics is pretty cool ... you can change names, create maps, click AI options on/off, change attack/defend factors, move factors, blah blah blah. It's a no brainer ... but, you can write scripts for other stuff. It even has "events" that can occur, basic events are available and more can be written.

Rob