Just an idea, thought I'd throw it out and get some feedback.
If we continue to balance prestige in future DLC campaigns to be tight and coming up with a system that is difficult because:
It does not allow for elite replacements
It does not allow for a large reserve
We might have a balanced system.
However we all know that making prestige tight hurts players who are not veterans (several people have expressed difficulty even with DLC 1939 and DLC 1940 on Colonel mode) while veteran players have the knowledge and the skill to change tactics to fit prestige they are given (using discount upgrade families to the maximum, preferring normal reinforcements over elites, and so on)
So how about we come up with a supplemental system. Prestige throughout the DLCs will be fairly free wheeling and easy to come by (I would say the vast majority of players HATE being prestige starved anyways)
But at the same time, we have prestige sinks. Do you want to 'buy' some captured equipment instead of randomly coming across it? Okay, pay 3000 and we'll give you a special tank.
Want a Panther tank prototype in 1942? Give me 5000 prestige, and you can have it months before it would normally become available.
Me262 test flights began in 1942. You want to bring the prototype into combat as a unit? Give me 10,000 prestige.
Thoughts?
All of this is possible to do, with some creative explanation of trigger settings. The point is though, players who need large amount of prestige may not be the best players in the world, but we need to respect their desire to have fun all the same. But giving out too much prestige diminishes the 'fun' of what some other more 'hardcore' players derive from being seriously challenged.
So we give out good amounts of prestige for those who need it, but for those that don't and feel 'flooded' with prestige, we can offer these people alternatives and 'bonuses' so to speak to compensate them.
New Idea: Prestige Sinks
Moderators: Slitherine Core, The Lordz, Panzer Corps Moderators, Panzer Corps Design
As another note, this is how prestige works, by it's very definition.
The primary resource in Panzer Corps isn't money or materials, it's the abstract concept of prestige. Prestige means reputation and influence. If you have very large influence, you can get things other officers might not normally be able to get.
Wouldn't you agree only the most 'prestigious' commanders would be allowed to bring prototype units into combat for field trials?
The primary resource in Panzer Corps isn't money or materials, it's the abstract concept of prestige. Prestige means reputation and influence. If you have very large influence, you can get things other officers might not normally be able to get.
Wouldn't you agree only the most 'prestigious' commanders would be allowed to bring prototype units into combat for field trials?
Well the game already has a prestige sink, it's called elite reinforcing. I'm not sure whether you want to balance the game around making elite reinforcing the default option on Colonel. You do have two lower difficulty settings.
However, the idea is not bad. When playing through on Manstein, I often had 5-7 units in reserve, and so clearly prestige was not an issue. I'm not so keen on having prototype units as opposed to having some way of getting special, elite regiments. For instance, SE units, I'd pay 1k prestige for a SE panzer, just to have that extra unit in my slot. After all, the people who already hate Spoils of War type scenario will not like Me-262 or Panther in 1942.
Another option is to have special, experienced units to buy, although I'm not sure how you'd do it with the game system. I might be very interested in being able to buy say a 2 star panzer with a hero or two and a knight's cross already, and I'd be willing to pay a lot for that.
Edit: Alternatively, give out more prestige on Colonel, but reduce prestige for General and Field Marshall to current levels. And give Rommel -75% prestige to balance it.
However, the idea is not bad. When playing through on Manstein, I often had 5-7 units in reserve, and so clearly prestige was not an issue. I'm not so keen on having prototype units as opposed to having some way of getting special, elite regiments. For instance, SE units, I'd pay 1k prestige for a SE panzer, just to have that extra unit in my slot. After all, the people who already hate Spoils of War type scenario will not like Me-262 or Panther in 1942.
Another option is to have special, experienced units to buy, although I'm not sure how you'd do it with the game system. I might be very interested in being able to buy say a 2 star panzer with a hero or two and a knight's cross already, and I'd be willing to pay a lot for that.
Edit: Alternatively, give out more prestige on Colonel, but reduce prestige for General and Field Marshall to current levels. And give Rommel -75% prestige to balance it.
I'm sorry, but I don't like it.
Balancing the game through prestige works best, and as you constrain the prestige more than it is now, and the balance becomes better that is good.
For those that need more prestige, they can go down a level. That's what difficulty levels are for.
Buying prototypes to get rid of extra prestige is a an interesting idea, but it is only good for that scenario or perhaps the next. Why? Because time passes and soon you will be able to buy that prototype anyways.
Buying an SE unit is interesting, but then again that is a huge advantage for the player as it doesn't count a slot, plus the AI is easy to beat anyways.
So, having an extra unit compounds the situation for every scenario after you buy it, because it is one extra unit that you can place on the battlefield until the game is over.
Balancing the game through prestige works best, and as you constrain the prestige more than it is now, and the balance becomes better that is good.
For those that need more prestige, they can go down a level. That's what difficulty levels are for.
Buying prototypes to get rid of extra prestige is a an interesting idea, but it is only good for that scenario or perhaps the next. Why? Because time passes and soon you will be able to buy that prototype anyways.
Buying an SE unit is interesting, but then again that is a huge advantage for the player as it doesn't count a slot, plus the AI is easy to beat anyways.
So, having an extra unit compounds the situation for every scenario after you buy it, because it is one extra unit that you can place on the battlefield until the game is over.
-
IainMcNeil
- Site Admin
- Posts: 13558
- Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2005 10:19 am
My concern with that is it takes away from the desire to get DVs. Why go for a harder DV if a easier minor victory rewards more prestige?iainmcneil wrote:Amother way is to award less prestige for DV's.
So players who do well find it harder and it auto balances the game.
A lot of people have realized minor victories are better to get in the current campaign (except in some cases of changing campaign paths), and id rather not promote that sort of behavior anymore.
-
El_Condoro
- Panzer Corps Moderator
- Posts: 2119
- Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2008 9:32 am
If the issue is to 'control' prestige a bit, why not have a prestige cap for each scenario that is modified by the level being played at (along the lines of what deducter suggested above).
e.g. 1.5 - 1.25 - 1.0 (Colonel) - 0.75 - 0.50 (FM).
A scenario may have a 2000 point cap, modified to 3000 at the lowest playing level to 1000 at the highest.
e.g. 1.5 - 1.25 - 1.0 (Colonel) - 0.75 - 0.50 (FM).
A scenario may have a 2000 point cap, modified to 3000 at the lowest playing level to 1000 at the highest.
While I understand those concerns, I'm with Razz.
If you're having prestige problems just play a level down.
Why not give the player the choice to earn more prestige points, by making it optional to win prestige points, for example, by winning battles at the Game options menu?
Although this might create balancing problems...
Being a casual player, I've always played my games in Normal level. Well, until a couple of years ago. Now I'm forced to play at higher levels, because games are now to easy on normal. With Panzer Corps, Colonel (normal) seems to follow the old patterns of difficulty level.
If you're having prestige problems just play a level down.
Why not give the player the choice to earn more prestige points, by making it optional to win prestige points, for example, by winning battles at the Game options menu?
Although this might create balancing problems...
Being a casual player, I've always played my games in Normal level. Well, until a couple of years ago. Now I'm forced to play at higher levels, because games are now to easy on normal. With Panzer Corps, Colonel (normal) seems to follow the old patterns of difficulty level.
I like this idea and I think it has a lot of appeal. I liked in the original game that you could spend prestige to use the Italian fleet in Sea Lion, or by pass Kiev for a Moscow push. To use it towards equipment is a great idea, allowing the purchase of prototypes, etc. How about if you are allowed to buy prototypes with exp. but the are non replaceable? Like the mod that was not selected for the Tiger tank and the design was scrapped. You start with 10 of this prototype and through battle attrition they cannot be replaced. Just a thought. Or, if you get the Panther early you cannot get replacements til they are in production.
I'm a weak / casual player BUT I enjoy the challenge provided by Panzer Corps, esp. the DLC campaigns! I stayed up until 0100 last night holding off a Polish attack in the Piatek scenario & I wouldn't have it any other way. If I'd had the option to purchase prototype / SE units, it definitely wouldn't have been as much fun!
-
nikivdd
- Panzer Corps Map Designer
- Posts: 4520
- Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 1:21 pm
- Location: Belgium
- Contact:
Just a thought...
Prestige points: for normal and elite replacements
Upgrade points: for accomplishing mission objectives (for ex. 1p per mission objective)
Prototype points: for achieving decisive victories (for ex. 1p per DV)
Captured units can be traded in for prototype points. All parties during ww2 learned a lot about eachother's equipment.
The possibility to upgrade captured units (as it is now) should be disabled.
Prestige points: for normal and elite replacements
Upgrade points: for accomplishing mission objectives (for ex. 1p per mission objective)
Prototype points: for achieving decisive victories (for ex. 1p per DV)
Captured units can be traded in for prototype points. All parties during ww2 learned a lot about eachother's equipment.
The possibility to upgrade captured units (as it is now) should be disabled.
While I understand the reason behind the suggestion I don't like the idea.
If people have excessive amounts of Prestige even at the three extra FM levels, they are just too good and outliers, not the norm.
They really don't need and maybe don't even want Tigers or Me262 several scenarios earlier. And who knows if they would really pay 1,2,3K for a single unit.
Dunno, doesn't sound right or fitting at all.
Alternative suggestions:
1.) Change a difficulty level or make a new difficulty level that doesn't allow FREE normal repairs at deployment.
2.) and/or make people pay for the SE unit, if they really want to have it. It gives an advantage, +1 unit, after all.
If people have excessive amounts of Prestige even at the three extra FM levels, they are just too good and outliers, not the norm.
They really don't need and maybe don't even want Tigers or Me262 several scenarios earlier. And who knows if they would really pay 1,2,3K for a single unit.
Dunno, doesn't sound right or fitting at all.
Alternative suggestions:
1.) Change a difficulty level or make a new difficulty level that doesn't allow FREE normal repairs at deployment.
2.) and/or make people pay for the SE unit, if they really want to have it. It gives an advantage, +1 unit, after all.
This is sort of what I was thinking about. It's a little tricky to implement at the moment, but by no means impossible.Blitz1945 wrote:I like this idea and I think it has a lot of appeal. I liked in the original game that you could spend prestige to use the Italian fleet in Sea Lion, or by pass Kiev for a Moscow push. To use it towards equipment is a great idea, allowing the purchase of prototypes, etc. How about if you are allowed to buy prototypes with exp. but the are non replaceable? Like the mod that was not selected for the Tiger tank and the design was scrapped. You start with 10 of this prototype and through battle attrition they cannot be replaced. Just a thought. Or, if you get the Panther early you cannot get replacements til they are in production.
I'll experiment with this idea for DLC 1941 or DLC 1942 and we'll see how it goes. I hope it's as successful as the captured units experiment, but we'll see. It has to really work, and I can see there is already some resistance to the idea.
-
monkspider
- Lieutenant Colonel - Panther D
- Posts: 1254
- Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2011 3:22 am
I would say this most accurately describes my thoughts as well. I think the system that is being proposed would essentially do away with the distinction between elite and normal replacements, since we would be rolling in prestige and always just go for elite. I find that playing on General level, I usually have enough prestige for elite replacements between battles and but often during battles i have to go for regular replacements. It does give me an incentive to use my units more cautiously to preserve their experience levels. I do think your idea has promise though, and I like the idea of being able to buy special unique or prototype units upon certain triggers.Xitax wrote:I don't think making prestige more readily available is a good idea - that's what difficulty levels are for. On the other hand if you have prestige to burn (and I don't, even on Colonel level) I wouldn't mind some extra ways to spend it.
I like those ideas a lot.
As a "casual" (hate that term, but I can't find a better one at the moment) gamer, my gut feeling would be that a right quantity of prestige on an average level (eg. Colonel) would allow systematic elite replacements on the deployement screen, green replacements only in battle, and maybe overstrength on select units in scenarios where your core is already full and your material upgrades already done, and if you did well on battles.
My problem is more with the upgrade system, and the fact you have to pay full price for anything else than an incremental upgrade on the same material series. First, there is the somewhat "gamey" thing of disbanding before rebuying, which is not clearly pointed out in the game interface (no button, only hotkey), nor (iirc) in the tutorial. Then, there is the fact you lose your heroes, medals ... if you do so. You aren't putting to death your best soldiers when you purchase new tanks for those :p. I'd rather have a slightly reduced price for upgrading units (outside of the upgrade tracks) - after all, you pay for the new tanks and such, but you already have the manpower and generic supplies. This could be maybe desactivated as an option (or by default in one of the hardest difficulty settings).
As a "casual" (hate that term, but I can't find a better one at the moment) gamer, my gut feeling would be that a right quantity of prestige on an average level (eg. Colonel) would allow systematic elite replacements on the deployement screen, green replacements only in battle, and maybe overstrength on select units in scenarios where your core is already full and your material upgrades already done, and if you did well on battles.
My problem is more with the upgrade system, and the fact you have to pay full price for anything else than an incremental upgrade on the same material series. First, there is the somewhat "gamey" thing of disbanding before rebuying, which is not clearly pointed out in the game interface (no button, only hotkey), nor (iirc) in the tutorial. Then, there is the fact you lose your heroes, medals ... if you do so. You aren't putting to death your best soldiers when you purchase new tanks for those :p. I'd rather have a slightly reduced price for upgrading units (outside of the upgrade tracks) - after all, you pay for the new tanks and such, but you already have the manpower and generic supplies. This could be maybe desactivated as an option (or by default in one of the hardest difficulty settings).
Prestige??
I have read through these posts and am puzzled. It may be just me, one of the things I have felt thru the whole beta testing for me, starting back in June, is I never felt like the program really rewards the player. Because the whole outcome of the sernario(within a campaign) is dependant on the "roll of the die". If you're lucky and don't come out of the scrap with a lot of casualties, you have enough prestige to reinforce everything as you see fit. If unlucky, you play short. One of the most unique features of PZC(& old PG) is the "elite reinforcements" AND not being able to use this is not fun, as it seems to happen on higher levels!!
So, I'd like to see other ways to accumulate prestige, maybe a random bonus VP that is really worth a lot(500+); small amounts of pretige for enemy units killed; or a hidden sliding scale for earlier finishing the senario, similar to the old DV, MV,TV. I also would like more control over the SE units, because they don't seem to be that great of improvement. I'd like the option to accept or not. I'm also not crazy about Prototypes, unless it's fairly historically acurrate.
I'd like to see a little more freely added prestige in implemation and in player control. Just on Col level, for DVs one is given just enough pts. to get most units back to 10, let alone elite. Nor can you fill up all of your slots. IN my last 39 camapaign I wasn't able to fill slots until about 40% thru. France. That doesn't seem like a reward, for my time and effort.
IN conclusion, I'd like to see more ways to get prestige, maybe like capturing every city plus VP, giving to player choice, instead of a built in rigid formula. Thanks. Good day.
To many games, not enough time.
So, I'd like to see other ways to accumulate prestige, maybe a random bonus VP that is really worth a lot(500+); small amounts of pretige for enemy units killed; or a hidden sliding scale for earlier finishing the senario, similar to the old DV, MV,TV. I also would like more control over the SE units, because they don't seem to be that great of improvement. I'd like the option to accept or not. I'm also not crazy about Prototypes, unless it's fairly historically acurrate.
I'd like to see a little more freely added prestige in implemation and in player control. Just on Col level, for DVs one is given just enough pts. to get most units back to 10, let alone elite. Nor can you fill up all of your slots. IN my last 39 camapaign I wasn't able to fill slots until about 40% thru. France. That doesn't seem like a reward, for my time and effort.
IN conclusion, I'd like to see more ways to get prestige, maybe like capturing every city plus VP, giving to player choice, instead of a built in rigid formula. Thanks. Good day.
To many games, not enough time.