Shifting into Melee and Expanding

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 6:54 am

zoltan wrote:
dave_r wrote:Yes to both
Well in the case of A, red would presumably have to wheel a gnat's wotsit to make front right corner to side edge contact with blue.

In the case of A a wheel would only leave the 2 groups in corner to corner contact, not corner to edge.

bbotus · Post by **bbotus** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 7:51 am

In the case of A a wheel would only leave the 2 groups in corner to corner contact, not corner to edge.

So example A cannot charge into legal contact. But example B could wheel into legal charge contact. Interesting, if example B wheels a smidge then it has 'front corner only against the enemy base's edge', which is legal contact. I wonder if RBS meant for that to be legal since it started in side edge to side edge contact with the enemy?

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Sat Oct 15, 2011 8:23 pm

nikgaukroger wrote:In the case of A a wheel would only leave the 2 groups in corner to corner contact, not corner to edge.

Ok then, in the case of example B the wheel would result in front corner to side edge contact at impact. My point was, since red (which is in two ranks and within 1 MU of blue's flank) has to wheel in order to contact blue's flank, is it:

1. Red can not even declare a charge - because it would have to wheel within 1 MU of blue's flank to make contact with the flank it is not permitted to declare such a charge, or

2. Red can declare the charge and wheel into contact with blue's flank within 1 MU during impact (but it doesn't COUNT as a flank charge). In the manoeuvre phase the red BG (the charger) must line up with blue BG (the charged). Accordingly, the red BG is picked up and placed front to front with the blue BG (there being no obstacles or other BGs preventing this), as this was NOT a flank charge.

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:50 am

I'm still not sold on the fact that you can 'make contact' with something you are already 'in contact' with.... I think that is a break down in English to American or something... contact is only made one... unless it is broken and made again.

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 12:51 pm

imanfasil wrote:I'm still not sold on the fact that you can 'make contact' with something you are already 'in contact' with.... I think that is a break down in English to American or something... contact is only made one... unless it is broken and made again.

Just point out where it states this in rules and we are all happy then!

As it stands, you can always charge to make legal contact. In all these scenarios, they wouldn't count as flank charges, so the unit would move to the frontal contact position. As Zoltan has stated.

There is nothing to stop you moving from corner to corner contact to front corner to side edge contact as a legal contact during a charge.

bbotus · Post by **bbotus** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 8:28 pm

imanfasil wrote:
I'm still not sold on the fact that you can 'make contact' with something you are already 'in contact' with.... I think that is a break down in English to American or something... contact is only made one... unless it is broken and made again.

dave_r wrote:
Just point out where it states this in rules and we are all happy then!

I sure can't find anything that says you can't charge by doing a wheel so that front corner only is in contact with a side edge. Without the author willing to come forward to speak to intent, that means it'll get played either way depending on individual interpretation of whether or not "contact must be broken or not".

FWIW, page 52 says that the BG has to 'make legal charge contact' and defines it. So if a BG wheels to front corner only to side edge contact, it has made the necessary move to meet one of the 2 "legal" definitions of charge contact per the rules.

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 9:02 pm

bbotus wrote:
imanfasil wrote:
I'm still not sold on the fact that you can 'make contact' with something you are already 'in contact' with.... I think that is a break down in English to American or something... contact is only made one... unless it is broken and made again.

dave_r wrote:
Just point out where it states this in rules and we are all happy then!
I sure can't find anything that says you can't charge by doing a wheel so that front corner only is in contact with a side edge. Without the author willing to come forward to speak to intent, that means it'll get played either way depending on individual interpretation of whether or not "contact must be broken or not".

No it won't. The rules are quite clear in that when you charge it is valid if you make legal contact. The point I have been making and the one that nobody has been able to answer is where it states you can't do this.

Since the rules clearly state you can and nowhere states you can't then the only logical and valid reading of the RAW is that you can legally declare a charge.

FWIW, page 52 says that the BG has to 'make legal charge contact' and defines it. So if a BG wheels to front corner only to side edge contact, it has made the necessary move to meet one of the 2 "legal" definitions of charge contact per the rules.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:54 pm

And thats the same passage I'm reading... I just don't think you can make contact, when you are in contact.

Also if I am in corner to corner contact I cannot move towards that enemy at all... my unit is already touching it. I can wheel on the point of contact but I cannot get any closer (cant get closer than in contact!)

Read page 52 - too much in two different areas to type it all, but the relevant parts are - 1) to charge you must be able to MAKE LEGAL CONTACT. (I argue that units only MAKE contact once... if you are already in contact you can't be MAKING contact.) 2) Under Legal Charge Contact it again says a unit MAKES legal contact if one of its bases CONTACTS an enemy base in the two defined ways. You are not CONTACTING a base that you are already in contact with. It doesn't say 'remain in contact' it says CONTACTS that is an active word that implies something has changed... contact has been made...

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Sun Oct 16, 2011 10:59 pm

FOUND IT!

Page 53. (Summarizing) A charge move has to be an advance straight ahead OR an advance straight ahead combined with a wheel.

A Wheel alone is NOT a legal charge. So if you are touching my unit at the corner you can wheel all you want, but you cannot move forward even 1mm... no charge possible.

(I knew it had to be illegal... otherwise I really could declare a charge with my impact foot that was already in melee every turn... can I wind up in legal contact? Damn straight.. started in melee... and thats legal contact!)

dave_r · Post by **dave_r** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:01 am

imanfasil wrote:FOUND IT!

Page 53. (Summarizing) A charge move has to be an advance straight ahead OR an advance straight ahead combined with a wheel.

A Wheel alone is NOT a legal charge. So if you are touching my unit at the corner you can wheel all you want, but you cannot move forward even 1mm... no charge possible.

(I knew it had to be illegal... otherwise I really could declare a charge with my impact foot that was already in melee every turn... can I wind up in legal contact? Damn straight.. started in melee... and thats legal contact!)

I'm afraid you haven't found anything. If you are at corner to corner you can move forward and then wheel. This then makes legal contact which is a valid charge.

By the way - you can't declare a charge with a unit that is in melee.

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 12:20 am

It doesn't make contact... you were already in contact.

Where does it say I cannot charge with a unit that is in melee? (I don't see that stated anywhere. Page 53 could be taken by some - apparently - to say that my unt in melee advances straight ahead up to its full movement - 0mm - and end in legal contact with an enemy)

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 11:59 am

zoltan wrote:
dave_r wrote:If you are in side edge to side edge contact with enemy you can always charge them. Well, as long as you obey the other restrictions on charge targets - i.e. they aren't already participating in combat to their front.

Can we be clear on this please? In the two examples below it is Red's Impact Phase. Can red declare a charge on blue. Yes or no?

Crikey. You expect clarity from us? You're more likely to get clarity from a bunch of arguing toddlers!

Moire seriously, opinions here will differ. An author might give clarity if they notice the discussion.

For what it's worth, my thoughts would be:

In B, Red can declare a charge. It will need to wheel precisely 90 degrees into the flank. I think this is the only option because the legal charge contacts with a front edge or a front corner against an edge. The corner is already in contact so I can't see how it "contacts" the enemy edge. In the movement phase it'll scoot round to the front of blue to conform.

In A, red will need to wheel about 270 degrees to it's left and then move straight forward to hit the blue flank edge with either front edge or front corner (since the corner in this case does not start in contact with the enemy edge). Again, it isn't a flank charge so scoots round to the front in the movement phase.

All these weird manouverings may be interesting, but I've never seen them happen in a real game. And they're not much use as they don't count as flank charges.

Caledonian · Post by **Caledonian** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 4:33 pm

Surely if BGs were able to charge in the above circumstances there would be no need for the instances outlined in page 76. The first para under the heading "Front corner to front coreer contact" ends with the words "...they can engage in melee as follows:"... which would suggest to me that the authors did not consider that a charge was a valid option from these positions (and yes, I know it is dangerous to assume what the authors intended).

John

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:01 pm

imanfasil wrote:It doesn't make contact... you were already in contact.

Where does it say I cannot charge with a unit that is in melee? (I don't see that stated anywhere. Page 53 could be taken by some - apparently - to say that my unt in melee advances straight ahead up to its full movement - 0mm - and end in legal contact with an enemy)

It's in the first page of impact under Legal Charge Contact:

"A battle group makes a „legal‟ charge contact if at least one of its bases contacts an enemy base either
a) with its front edge, or
b) with its front corner only against the enemy base‟s edge."

I think most people would read "contacts" as "goes from not touching to touching"

bbotus · Post by **bbotus** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:07 pm

So situation A is not an issue since we can't wheel more than 90 degrees in a charge.

Situation B is the point in question. I think you have all stated the opposing sides very eloquently and thoughtfully. I have my biases on the issue; but if I were a judge, it would be a tough and arbitrary call. Both sides have a lot of merit here. Mr RBS, would you care to comment and end this discussion?

For the record, I'm leaning toward grahambriggs requirement that the BG must wheel 90 degrees into contact since it already has front corner contact. Our group, though, will have to vote on the matter in the absence of direction from the author. It is a shame we have to do that. Overall, I like the rule system a lot.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:18 pm

Much as I hate to pour cold water on these Machiavellian debates, I think there is a rule tucked away in the Combat Mechanism section that may render the argument null and void (and indeed relegate much of my postings on this thread to the status of garbage). Sorry, only just seen this.

Looking under How Many Dice to Roll, Impact phase section, second pare, second sentence:

"Combat between bases already fighting in the previous melee phase is not resolved until the next melee phase"

So that seems to rule out troops in combat charging (or if they can there's no impact combat so what's the point?)

Of course, there's a whole new argument to be had over what "bases already fighting" means. Fighting each other? You could read it that way. Fighting anyone?

In the OP, the foot knights fought an enemy frontally (who then broke off) and was overlapped. I think it's very difficult to argue anything other than the front two bases of the overlapping cavalry and the front foot knight base at least were fighting as (same section, melee phase) "An overlap fights against the same enemy base as the friendly base for which it provides an overlap"

So I think the answer is that, assuming the cavalry are two deep, the foot knights cannot charge them afeter all. Or, if they do charge by wheeling into the flank, they don't fight an impact, act have to shuffle round to the front anyway. So you might as well shuffle across anyway, if you want to fight the cavalry.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:21 pm

bbotus wrote:So situation A is not an issue since we can't wheel more than 90 degrees in a charge.

Situation B is the point in question. I think you have all stated the opposing sides very eloquently and thoughtfully. I have my biases on the issue; but if I were a judge, it would be a tough and arbitrary call. Both sides have a lot of merit here. Mr RBS, would you care to comment and end this discussion?

For the record, I'm leaning toward grahambriggs requirement that the BG must wheel 90 degrees into contact since it already has front corner contact. Our group, though, will have to vote on the matter in the absence of direction from the author. It is a shame we have to do that. Overall, I like the rule system a lot.

90 degrees in a charge is a v2 restriction, not v1. I suspect RBS would rather watch paint dry thn get involved in this!

See my previous post - I think I've (finally) found a rule that sorts it out.

berthier · Post by **berthier** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 5:24 pm

This is starting to get ridiculous. A statement from an author is needed here.

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:34 pm

grahambriggs wrote:
bbotus wrote:So situation A is not an issue since we can't wheel more than 90 degrees in a charge.

Situation B is the point in question. I think you have all stated the opposing sides very eloquently and thoughtfully. I have my biases on the issue; but if I were a judge, it would be a tough and arbitrary call. Both sides have a lot of merit here. Mr RBS, would you care to comment and end this discussion?

For the record, I'm leaning toward grahambriggs requirement that the BG must wheel 90 degrees into contact since it already has front corner contact. Our group, though, will have to vote on the matter in the absence of direction from the author. It is a shame we have to do that. Overall, I like the rule system a lot.
90 degrees in a charge is a v2 restriction, not v1. I suspect RBS would rather watch paint dry thn get involved in this!

See my previous post - I think I've (finally) found a rule that sorts it out.

Graham, page 53 - no wheel while charging can be over 90 degrees.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Mon Oct 17, 2011 6:35 pm

grahambriggs wrote:All these weird manouverings may be interesting, but I've never seen them happen in a real game. And they're not much use as they don't count as flank charges.

Well we've definitely had games where both A and B were present - they are not at all weird!

At the time, the conclusion was (in both cases) that there was no way for red to declare a charge on blue. This was based on the flank charge rule that you can't wheel when within 1 MU of the flank. We read this as:
- if you are in a flank charge position
- and you are within 1 MU
- and therefore you would need to wheel to contact
- then you may not declare a charge

Thus both BGs were "stuck" until one or the other spent a manoeuvre phase turning 90 degrees or moving completely away from the other. This seemed odd but was how we played it.

Then other points of view emerged suggesting red was entitled to declare a charge on blue (as covered in this discussion) it just wouldn't COUNT as a flank charge despite it starting behind the enemy's flank. Clearly in the UK (the font of all FoG knowledge) there are supporters for both points of view.