Shifting into Melee and Expanding

[nikgaukroger]

But surely the errata clearly states that you can only join a melee in the manoever phase if you join as an overlap?

As mentioned above by imanfasil the Page 75 errata is for the section about Moving Into Contact With Enemy Battlegroups - i.e. when you are not already in some form of contact - the section on Page 76 is about those BGs who are already in contact at the start of the Manoeuvre Phase. It is 2 different situations.

[zoltan]

Ok so page 76 appears to say that:

A BG that finds itself in corner to corner contact with an enemy BG (regardless of the circumstances that resulted in this situation) can:
1. do nothing (implicit)
2. move away (obviously in the manoeuvre phase as this is when "normal moves" occur)
3. engage in melee by shifting 1 base width sideways to create a front edge to front edge contact (as long as it is not already in frontal contact, fighting as an overlap or in the restricted area of another enemy BG).

Implicitly the sideways move would need to happen in the Manoeuvre Phase but that is somewhat ambiguous especially as the enemy BG (if eligible) could choose to evade - normally an Impact Phase event. This appears to be another one of those "out of sequence" situations.

Returning to the OP example, because feeding in occurs before 'normal movement' (within the Manoeuvre Phase), the BG can NOT move sideways and then expand to match the enemy overlap (contrary to what I previously posted).

[imanfasil]

That is all correct. The evasion during the maneuver phase is spiked out becuase it is such an exception. The contact is made in manuever phase and combat starts in the melee phase, no impact combat is fought between the two units.

[grahambriggs]

I believe the answer is as follows:

In the "BGs already in contact but not yet committed section is says:

"A battle group that is only in front corner to front corner contact with an enemy battle group, and not eligible to fight as an overlap, can shift 1 base width sideways to create a front edge to front edge contact, but only if both of the following apply:
 It is not in frontal contact with, nor eligible to fight as an overlap against, any other enemy battle group.
 It is not in the restricted area of another enemy battle group of a type it does not ignore."

Both of those points apply in this case, so the foot knight can move 1 Base width sideways to fight the mounted. The foot knight don't have to do this (they could stand still or move away). The mounted can't evade (they could have done if 1 deep cavalry).

Can the foot knights then feed in additional bases? Not this bound. Why? Because feeding in comes before normal movement in the sequence of play, and the shifting across is part of normal movement.

The knight player might instead want to not shift sideways but simply feed in more bases (i.e. expand into the cavalry). They can't do this, as this is restricted to BGs in close combat (first sentence of 'feeding in'). And the foot knights stopped being in close combat when the enemy broke off.

[grahambriggs]

But surely the errata clearly states that you can only join a melee in the manoever phase if you join as an overlap?

I think the bit you're thinking about is in the main rules Dave: "Battle groups can move into contact with enemy battle groups in the manoeuvre phase, but only to join an existing melee in an overlap position only"

Doesn't apply here as the BGs are already in contact.

[bbotus]

zoltan wrote:

Ok so page 76 appears to say that:

A BG that finds itself in corner to corner contact with an enemy BG (regardless of the circumstances that resulted in this situation) can:
1. do nothing (implicit)
2. move away (obviously in the manoeuvre phase as this is when "normal moves" occur)
3. engage in melee by shifting 1 base width sideways to create a front edge to front edge contact (as long as it is not already in frontal contact, fighting as an overlap or in the restricted area of another enemy BG).

for completeness, I believe there is one more option.

4. In the impact phase the foot knights could declare a charge and wheel 90 degrees into contact with the side of the cav. This would not count as a flank charge and during the manoeuvre phase, they'd shift into the position just as if they had shifted. But in this case, since it is a charge, they could expand 1 file (feeding bases into melee).

Is there any rule that says option 4 is not possible?

[imanfasil]

I think you cannot charge. You cannot move towards the enemy.... if you are already touching at the corner, no matter how much you wheel on that corner - you are still in contact. So... you cannot move forward to make contact. Your other files (if you had any) could not step forward either as that only happens after you move forward and make initial contact... which you can't do because you cannot move towards the enemy.

If you moved forward before wheeling towards the enemy the same is still true... you are already in conctact... and that is not a charge (impact) that is melee.

[dave_r]

I think you cannot charge. You cannot move towards the enemy.... if you are already touching at the corner, no matter how much you wheel on that corner - you are still in contact. So... you cannot move forward to make contact. Your other files (if you had any) could not step forward either as that only happens after you move forward and make initial contact... which you can't do because you cannot move towards the enemy.

If you moved forward before wheeling towards the enemy the same is still true... you are already in conctact... and that is not a charge (impact) that is melee.

Where does it say you can't move closer to the enemy during a charge? You can always charge, even if you start in contact with enemy.

In fact, shock troops have to test not to charge if they are only acting as an overlap.

[zoltan]

Where does it say you can't move closer to the enemy during a charge? You can always charge, even if you start in contact with enemy.

In fact, shock troops have to test not to charge if they are only acting as an overlap.

Missed you!

[grahambriggs]

A charge that wheels into the flank seems OK to me. It's a legal charge (front edge ends in contact). It won't count as a flank chage, so isn't caught by the "can't wheel within 1MU". Of course the interception charge by the cavalry could be a problem...

[imanfasil]

You have to roll not to charge for Shock troops who are only fighting as an overlap if there is a legal charge target in front of you. That doesn't mean you can charge BGs you are already in contact with.... if I can charge units that I'm in contact with, can my impact foot 'charge' the unit of pike I charged last turn and didn't get a good impact result on to try get to fight impact again? (clearly not)

Impact is only fought when two units make initial contact... you cannot charge a BG you are already in contact with...

[philqw78]

You have to roll not to charge for Shock troops who are only fighting as an overlap if there is a legal charge target in front of you. That doesn't mean you can charge BGs you are already in contact with.... if I can charge units that I'm in contact with, can my impact foot 'charge' the unit of pike I charged last turn and didn't get a good impact result on to try get to fight impact again? (clearly not)

Impact is only fought when two units make initial contact... you cannot charge a BG you are already in contact with...

I'd agree with that logic

[grahambriggs]

You have to roll not to charge for Shock troops who are only fighting as an overlap if there is a legal charge target in front of you. That doesn't mean you can charge BGs you are already in contact with.... if I can charge units that I'm in contact with, can my impact foot 'charge' the unit of pike I charged last turn and didn't get a good impact result on to try get to fight impact again? (clearly not)

Impact is only fought when two units make initial contact... you cannot charge a BG you are already in contact with...

I'd agree with that logic

I think you could read it either way. From the Impact section:

"To be allowed to declare a charge, there must be a visible enemy base that can be „legally‟ contacted by the charging battle group"

And legal contact is

"A battle group makes a „legal‟ charge contact if at least one of its bases contacts an enemy base either
a) with its front edge, or
b) with its front corner only against the enemy base‟s edge."

A unit already fighting to it's front cannot make a move such that it's front edge contacts the base it is already fighting. "contacts" surely implies that the edge goes from 'not touching' to 'touching' as part of the charge.

In a corner to corner overlap situation, the front edge is not in contact.

On the other hand, if you go down that path, perhaps you end up allowing overlaps that are in close combat tpo charge the unit they are overlapping, which is not the intenetion I'm fairly sure...

[dave_r]

You have to roll not to charge for Shock troops who are only fighting as an overlap if there is a legal charge target in front of you. That doesn't mean you can charge BGs you are already in contact with.... if I can charge units that I'm in contact with, can my impact foot 'charge' the unit of pike I charged last turn and didn't get a good impact result on to try get to fight impact again? (clearly not)

Impact is only fought when two units make initial contact... you cannot charge a BG you are already in contact with...

Can you provide the page reference where it states this please?

[hazelbark]

You have to roll not to charge for Shock troops who are only fighting as an overlap if there is a legal charge target in front of you. That doesn't mean you can charge BGs you are already in contact with.... if I can charge units that I'm in contact with, can my impact foot 'charge' the unit of pike I charged last turn and didn't get a good impact result on to try get to fight impact again? (clearly not)

Impact is only fought when two units make initial contact... you cannot charge a BG you are already in contact with...

Can you provide the page reference where it states this please?

imanfasil Dave is refering to "in contact" not "in combat". He is cleverly setting this wording trap so he can spring it.

[dave_r]

You have to roll not to charge for Shock troops who are only fighting as an overlap if there is a legal charge target in front of you. That doesn't mean you can charge BGs you are already in contact with.... if I can charge units that I'm in contact with, can my impact foot 'charge' the unit of pike I charged last turn and didn't get a good impact result on to try get to fight impact again? (clearly not)

Impact is only fought when two units make initial contact... you cannot charge a BG you are already in contact with...

Can you provide the page reference where it states this please?

imanfasil Dave is refering to "in contact" not "in combat". He is cleverly setting this wording trap so he can spring it.

Well actually, I wasn't. I'm still waiting for the reference to say you can't charge if you are in contact as I believe this to be nonsense. If you are in side edge to side edge contact with enemy you can always charge them. Well, as long as you obey the other restrictions on charge targets - i.e. they aren't already participating in combat to their front.

[bbotus]

The rules say (quoting page 53): "A charge cannot be declared if it would contact only the flank or rear edge of an enemy base which is already in melee to its front, except by a 'legal' flank or rear charge." Then FAQ v5.01, paragraph 4iii says it is ok to make a charge that is not a flank charge that contacts the side edge of the 3rd or 4th rank of a file in melee.

It takes less than 2-1/2 MU for a single file and about 4-1/2 MU for a double file to wheel 90 degrees. So if shock foot troops are fighting in a single file (or shock cav in double file) as an overlap against a unit that had 3 or more ranks, it would have to test not to charge the 3rd rank unless one of the exception reasons is applicable. Which brings up the possibility of the shock unit charging, hitting the flank of the overlapped unit, then during manoeuver, they would pivot and conform again as an overlap and be in the same position to again charge on its following impact phase. This could be repeated over and over.

[zoltan]

If you are in side edge to side edge contact with enemy you can always charge them. Well, as long as you obey the other restrictions on charge targets - i.e. they aren't already participating in combat to their front.

Can we be clear on this please? In the two examples below it is Red's Impact Phase. Can red declare a charge on blue. Yes or no?

[dave_r]

Yes to both

[zoltan]

Yes to both

Well in the case of A, red would presumably have to wheel a gnat's wotsit to make front right corner to side edge contact with blue. The fact that a wheel is being made within 1 MU means red's charge is not a flank charge (patent bollocks). In the manoeuvre phase would red be picked up and placed squarely front edge to front edge with blue?