Market Garden #5 - Counterattack (at Arnhem)

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MarsRobert
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Market Garden #5 - Counterattack (at Arnhem)

Post by MarsRobert »

Well, ahem, I thought things were going a bit too smoothly for me and I was enjoying this campaign a bit too much. I took a crack at the Arnhem Part Two battle, and suffice to say it is back to the drawing board. In my two tries I survived about 5-6 turns. :( This is an over-the-top tough one to rival those two later Ardennes battles. Anyway, there are two problems I experienced with it. For one thing, yes, I suffered heavy casualties in the first Arnhem fight so I'm probably going to have to go back to that save and try it again with an eye on minimizing my losses. Having said that, however, there is still another problem that I'm going to need to work out even if I get a larger force. That is, it seems once the numerous German infantry move in to that line of houses to the north of your position, they are then able to easily suppress and destroy your defenders on the hilltop. With a larger force I suppose I could try moving in to those houses. However, as an analog I had two infantry and an MG in that row of houses to the south which I thought would have been adequate, but they were easily brushed aside by the German attackers. Anyway, I'm going to leave the game for a few days and come back to it latter with hopefully a fresh perspective.

BTW, two 'aside' questions:

1) In #3 one of the things I did was made not losing any Piats a priority so that I could fulfill the extra credit victory condition. The result was that in #5 I had too many Piats and not enough regular Para infantry. So my question is this? Is there any benefit to fulfilling those extra credit victory conditions aside from bragging rights? If there is in the Market Garden campaign I've not noticed it.

2) In the first four campaigns the game seems to automatically remember your last completed mission, as well as allowing you to go back and refight any of the previous ones. With Market Garden though, I'm finding I have to go to the auto save to begin the next mission. Also, had I not already done a special save for #3, I would now be s.o.l. and have to go back to the very beginning.
"It is well that war is so terrible, or we should grow too fond of it." - 'Mars' Robert E. Lee
Merr
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Re: Market Garden #5 - Counterattack (at Arnhem)

Post by Merr »

MarsRobert wrote: 1) In #3 one of the things I did was made not losing any Piats a priority so that I could fulfill the extra credit victory condition. The result was that in #5 I had too many Piats and not enough regular Para infantry. So my question is this? Is there any benefit to fulfilling those extra credit victory conditions aside from bragging rights? If there is in the Market Garden campaign I've not noticed it.

2) In the first four campaigns the game seems to automatically remember your last completed mission, as well as allowing you to go back and refight any of the previous ones. With Market Garden though, I'm finding I have to go to the auto save to begin the next mission. Also, had I not already done a special save for #3, I would now be s.o.l. and have to go back to the very beginning.
1) ... Just bragging rights :cry: ... Achievement "carryover" is one addition that Pip has mentioned he would like to add sometime.

2) ... You are SOL. The funny part is, in my user carryover campaign ... I have the reverse problem, I can go to any mission in my campaign when I would prefer the MG style instead!
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Post by pipfromslitherine »

Something to bear in mind Merr, is that debug mode turns off the restrictions on Carryover missions - although it then probably won't work properly if at all, because of the required flow and carryover info. But it could be why you're not seeing it work as you expect.

Getting partway through and not having enough carryover units is definitely a concern in carryover-style campaigns. But it's somewhat unavoidable I guess?

Cheers

Pip
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Post by MarsRobert »

Thanks guys for the info. Fortunately I do have a save from the beginning of #3 so I'm not SOL. :) In light of what you said about the extra credit victory conditions, I will indeed replay #3 with an eye on keeping my losses down rather than fulfilling those bonus victory conditions.

One more thing. Am I correct in assuming that in the Arnhem Counterattack (#5) that you do indeed need to fight for that row of houses just to the north of your starting position? Again, what happened to me was that once the numerous German infantry moved in to those houses they were able to easily suppress my troops on the hilltop, then move in for the kill. :(

BTW, I'm starting to think that maybe the unit carryover doesn't work as well in BA as it does in Panzercorps. Then again, my buffed up 30 Corps carried over from #2 was able to brush aside the Germans in #4 without too much difficulty, so I guess it works both ways.
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Post by Amaz_Ed »

One more thing. Am I correct in assuming that in the Arnhem Counterattack (#5) that you do indeed need to fight for that row of houses just to the north of your starting position?
I really should pay more attention to my compass, but I don't know which way was North.....

Looking FROM the bridge, at the objectives, I succeeded in this mission by placing a few infantry units and a flamethrower in the houses to the LEFT, and managed with a couple of machine guns and an infantry squad on the right.
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Post by MarsRobert »

Amaz_Ed wrote:
One more thing. Am I correct in assuming that in the Arnhem Counterattack (#5) that you do indeed need to fight for that row of houses just to the north of your starting position?
I really should pay more attention to my compass, but I don't know which way was North.....

Looking FROM the bridge, at the objectives, I succeeded in this mission by placing a few infantry units and a flamethrower in the houses to the LEFT, and managed with a couple of machine guns and an infantry squad on the right.
Thanks for the reply Ed. Do you mean the houses on the right, or the row of fortifications on the right side of the hill? Again, it seems that once the Germans get in to those houses on the right, much too my surprise in short order they suppressed and inflicted casualties on all my squads in those fortifications at the right side of the hill. Thanks for the tip on the flamethrower. Come to think of it they would probably be most effective in the houses providing the Germans can't shoot at them from range. I hear you about the compass. To be honest I didn't even know there was one. :wink:

BTW, I'm assuming also that you need to win this battle with at least moderate forces left for the final British airborne battle, yes?
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Post by Merr »

Mars,

I used the same tactics as ED .... I had a flamethrower too!

I setup all good squads in both rows of houses (at base of hill, left and right)) ... I let the Germans come to me.
I swapped out broken squads with good squads but I never went out and searched for the Germans.
All my Bren or other weaker squads were on the hill (2nd line of defence).
If you have a Jeep ... I used it to run fire down the streets, then ducked him behind a house.

Overall, its a cat-and-mouse game.

Your initial squad casualities will play a roll though ... So, if you can't get through this I'm afraid you'll need to start over :( .
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Post by Merr »

Mars,

My setup is in BLUE ... Almost all my squads were in the houses, waiting ...

Image
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Post by MarsRobert »

Wow Merr, I'm blown away! What you guys are talking about I guess is a very aggressive defense well-away from the vp squares on the fortified hill next to the bridge. Of course this would require a much larger force than I had on hand, though again it is my intention to backtrack two missions and restart from #3 in order to get those additional forces. Anyway, I can see the merit in this approach. It keeps those disparate German forces coming from the west from concentrating and then proceeding with overwhelming strength against your hill enclave on the west side of the bridge. The only complication I can see is that you still have the Germans coming from the north, south and east to deal with, and it seems to me that the defense you envision would spread your forces kind of thin. Still in all, you guys have answered my question sufficiently, in that the bottom line seems to be that you have to fight in the houses in order to keep the Germans well-away from the hill enclave. Thanks a bunch. I'm sort of taking a breather from BA while I get caught up on the third and final chapter of the Deus Ex trilogy, but will probably get back to Market Garden by the weekend.

"I'm awfully sorry, but I'm afraid we're going to have to occupy your house." - Anthony Hopkins from 'A Bridge Too Far" :lol:
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Post by Amaz_Ed »

Please excuse the dodgy photoshopping, I wasn't very careful....

I didn't actually put any troops in the buildings on the right. I defended that side with the mortar and machine guns. I occasionally sent the jeep over to help out with any germans that managed to cross the road.
I did put troops in the buildings in the area marked in red. As Merr says, I didn't attack the germans here, I let them come to me and shuffled troops around according to their status. I did send out a scout or two later in the game, simply because I am impatient and impetuous!
Otherwise the tropps were deployed pretty much as they are shown in the image below.

Image
Merr
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Post by Merr »

Here is where a little randomness would help replayability ...
(like Benpark talked about ... viewtopic.php?t=27770 )

Mars ... If you need a "fresh" map (to illustrate your victory) ...
I got the original image from BoardGameGeek ... Storm Over Arnhem (1981, Avalon Hill).

http://boardgamegeek.com/image/14998/st ... size=large
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Post by Merr »

Amaz_Ed wrote:Please excuse the dodgy photoshopping, I wasn't very careful....
Join the club :wink:
Amaz_Ed wrote:I did send out a scout or two later in the game, simply because I am impatient and impetuous!
Ok ... I admit ... I did send a squad to peek around the corner between pushes ...

:P
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Post by MarsRobert »

Ok Merr, understood. So you don't deploy to the houses on the right? Again, when I tried the scenario my guys in the fortifications on the right side of the hill got nailed big-time by the German infantry firing from the row of houses. It almost seemed like the hilltop fortifications were giving me no benefit at all. Sighs. :( As I recall I lost about ten squads (plus of course incremental losses in other squads) in #3, so maybe it was just a case of my not having enough troops for #5. Still in all, when I try it again I'm going move in to those houses on the right as well as on the left. Gosh, the Arnhem fight reminds me of the Hornet's Nest at Shiloh! :twisted:

BTW, that does it. I'm going to see if I can find 'A Bridge Too Far' at Best Buy, or order it from Amazon. It was a great film and a worthy sequel to 'The Longest Day'. :P
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Post by Merr »

Mars,

I think you got it ...

If you have the squads, you can setup left/right like I did and the hilltop defense like Ed's. The hilltop can cover the north/south push. It appears in Ed's case, his hilltop defense had to cover the right side as well.

Save beforehand (you know that now!) ... then juggle what you have ... Worse case you back peddle to # 3.

Oh ... When I choose a target, I hit the German Scouts first, they can see that extra tile (Cover LOS), which is bad for you. :wink:

Also, remember ... If a unit is surpressed (morale < 50), unless you hit him again (gentle tap is all you need) he will regain morale next turn.

No need to waste them :twisted: ... just delay them.

Think of this scenario as a delaying-action ... :)
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Post by Merr »

Mars,

I just thought about something .... Remember the PIAT teams?

Have you had any PIAT teams reach Gold Elite Status (3-striper) ?

It sure gives another (good) reason why #3 wants you to nurse them to #5.
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Post by MarsRobert »

Merr wrote:Mars,

I just thought about something .... Remember the PIAT teams?

Have you had any PIAT teams reach Gold Elite Status (3-striper) ?

It sure gives another (good) reason why #3 wants you to nurse them to #5.
Yes, and as a matter of fact I was complaining early on in #5 that I had too many PIATs and not enough infantry. :wink: Speaking of the PIATS though, they were doing great at blowing away the German halftracks coming across the bridge, but when the infantry came up it seemed like the one MG I had in that sector wasn't enough to keep them from wrecking havoc with the PIATS. :(

Anyway, I wanted to mention that I think you hit on something with the scouts. I noticed that the German assaults on the hill had some scouts with them, and come to think of it they were probably what were enabling the Germans in those houses to fire on my troops from range. I will keep that in mind when I try again. Also, I'm assuming that you have to have at least a modest force left when #5 is over for the river crossing evacuation finale. I mean, you don't want to win it with one man left standing.
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Post by MarsRobert »

Gah! :evil: I keep going back and replaying #3 and I keep doing worse than the first time I played it, even though I now know more or less where the enemy troops are located. Go figure??? In my last attempt I lost my flamethrower; an absolutely essential unit to carryover to #5. Anyway, after playing the first four BA campaigns in rapid succession I'm probably burning myself out on the game and need to set it aside for a few weeks. Maybe it's time to go back to Panzercorp for a while, I see the first patch was released for it. Or maybe I should do a major gear switch and buy Slitherine's Hundred Years War game? :wink:
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Post by Rosseau »

Me? I'd open the editor and cheat :oops:

Meanwhile, I have enjoyed hearing of your experiences.
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Post by MarsRobert »

Rosseau wrote:Me? I'd open the editor and cheat :oops:

Meanwhile, I have enjoyed hearing of your experiences.
You are too kind Rosseu (Jean Jaques?? :wink:

Yeah, when I start getting in too much of a hurry to finish a game rather than savoring the moment playing it, that tells me it's time to give it a rest and play something else for a while. Still in all I have to say that BA has given me the best tactical WW2 experience that I've ever had. I like it even better than John Tiller's great WW2 Campaign Series, though I think that game perfected the dynamic campaign structure. Anyway, again, I'm curious to see how the recently released Panzer Corps patch affects gameplay. In any event I'll get back to Market Garden in a few weeks.

Cheers. :D
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