"Inspired" leaders: medieval period 1100-1500

[stockwellpete]

Who were they? Discuss.

[stockwellpete]

First nomination is Edward IV (formerly Earl of March); victor at Mortimer's Cross and Towton in 1461 and at Barnet and Tewkesbuy in 1471. King of England between 1461 and 1483.

Anyone disagree?

[omarquatar]

Who were they? Discuss.

what period do you mean 1100-150?

[stockwellpete]

Who were they? Discuss.

what period do you mean 1100-150?

1100-1500, Frank.

[TheGrayMouser]

Who were they? Discuss.

what period do you mean 1100-150?

1100-1500, Frank.

AD or BC ?

[stockwellpete]

what period do you mean 1100-150?

1100-1500, Frank.

AD or BC ?

Edward IV is a clue.

[TheGrayMouser]

Ahh in that case
Henry I, II and V
Richard I
Saladin
Robert Guiscard (maybe a generation too early)
Jan Ziska
Barbarossa
Timur

[stockwellpete]

Ahh in that case
Henry I, II and V
Richard I
Saladin
Robert Guiscard (maybe a generation too early)
Jan Ziska
Barbarossa
Timur

Well, you have to make a bit of a case for each one, if they are to be "inspired" leaders on the FOG battlefields.

Let's start with Henry I. Was he a great military leader? He certainly won the battle of Tinchebray in 1106 to secure the English throne - but what other battles did he win?

[TheGrayMouser]

Oh my bad, got my Henry's mixed up, scratch the ist as not too sure about what he did but #2:

Married the ex of Louis (eleanor) ensuring war with France as well as the continued war with King Stephen of England and other various alliances against him on the Continent. Took care of all that and was able to force the Magnates peace vs Stephen and eveuntually becaome his heir and take the throne. Was able to succesfully hold and increase his power on the continent ie the Angevin Empire, and had time to fight and force homage on the Scots , as well as invade Wales multiple times (not that that accomplished too much but my understanding is the expeditions themselves were very well organized and lead. Belive arguably is the ist king to have conquored Ireland as well. Dont know of the names of too many of the pitched battles, but to have campaigned for almost 40 years and in the end increased his domains and power, he must have been pretty good!

[stockwellpete]

OK, so Henry II gets a nomination. I would think Henry V, Richard the Lionheart and Saladin would be supported by a lot of people.

Nominations for "inspired" medieval leaders
Edward IV
Henry II
Henry V
Richard the Lionheart
Saladin

I'll have a look at the other ones tomorrow. Any more nominations from anyone? Du Guesclin perhaps? William Wallace? Robert the Bruce?

[TheGrayMouser]

Hey , what happened to Barbarossa and Timur and Ziska, or are we being Anglo-French Centric here ?

[stockwellpete]

Hey , what happened to Barbarossa and Timur and Ziska, or are we being Anglo-French Centric here ?

No Anglo-centrism here old bean, we'll dig out some details about those other ones tomorrow.

[stockwellpete]

Hey , what happened to Barbarossa and Timur and Ziska, or are we being Anglo-French Centric here ?

Well, I definitely think Ziska and Timur (Tamerlane) would qualify as "inspired leaders" on the battlefield, but I don't think Barbarossa really cuts the mustard. He won some battles in Italy but he also suffered some defeats, particularly at Legnano - so I think he might only be worth a "field" rating.

Nominations for "inspired" medieval leaders
Edward IV
Henry II
Henry V
Richard the Lionheart
Saladin
Jan Ziska
Timur (Tamerlane)

[frankpowerful]

Hey , what happened to Barbarossa and Timur and Ziska, or are we being Anglo-French Centric here ?

Well, I definitely think Ziska and Timur (Tamerlane) would qualify as "inspired leaders" on the battlefield, but I don't think Barbarossa really cuts the mustard. He won some battles in Italy but he also suffered some defeats, particularly at Legnano - so I think he might only be worth a "field" rating.

Nominations for "inspired" medieval leaders
Edward IV
Henry II
Henry V
Richard the Lionheart
Saladin
Jan Ziska
Timur (Tamerlane)

i'm against barbarossa as he was not able to defeat the lombard league.
but you should absolutely include Simon de Montfort, the leader of the albigensian crusade

[stockwellpete]

Nominations for "inspired" medieval leaders.

Henry II
1133-1189, King of England from 1154, victor at Alnwick 1174.

Richard the Lionheart
1157-1199, King of England from 1189, Crusader, defeated rebellions in Aquitaine and Angouleme, victor at Messina 1190, in Cyprus 1191, at Arsuf 1191 and Gisors 1198.

Saladin
1138-1194, Sultan of Egypt and Syria, founder of Ayyubid dynasty, victor at Hattin and siege of Jerusalem both 1187.

Simon de Montfort
1160-1218, leader of Albigensian Crusade against the Cathars, victor at Muret 1213.

Genghis Khan
1162-1227, founder of Mongol Empire, conqueror of Western Xia (by 1209) and Jin dynasties (by 1215), Kara-Khitan Khanate (by 1218) and Khwarezmid Empire (by 1221).

Charles of Anjou
1226-1285, King of Sicily from 1266 to 1282, Crusader, victor at Tagliacozzo 1263, Benevento 1266, re-conquest of Albania by 1272.

Robert the Bruce
1274-1329, King of Scotland from 1306, victor at Bannockburn 1314.

Edward, the Black Prince
1330-1376, Prince of Wales, victor at Crecy 1346, Poitiers 1356 and Najera (Spain) 1367.

Bertrand du Guesclin
1320-1380, Breton, Constable of France, defender of Rennes, victor at Monteil (Spain) 1369, Pontvallain 1370, Chize 1373.

Jan Ziska
1360-1424, Hussite (Taborite), military innovator using war wagons as "tanks", unbeaten in battle, at Grunwald-Tannenberg 1410, leader in Bohemian and Hussite civil wars.

Timur (Tamerlane)
1336-1405, founder of Timurid Dynasty, conqueror of Volga Bulgarians, Persians, the Golden Horde, northern India, the Mamluks in Syria, Ottoman Turks in Anatolia, victor at Kondurcha River 1391, Terek River 1395 and Ankara 1402.

Henry V
1386-1422, King of England from 1413, victor at Agincourt 1415.

Owain Glyndwr
(?) 1359-1416 (?), the last Welsh Prince of Wales, superb guerilla leader, leader of the Welsh Revolt 1400-1412, never captured.

Edward IV
1442-1483, King of England from 1461, victor at Mortimer's Cross 1461, Towton 1461, Barnet 1471 and Tewkesbury 1471.

[stockwellpete]

Regarding the list that I am building on this thread. If the leader is underlined then I think they can definitely be classed as an "inspired" leader, but the other ones in italics are a bit more marginal choices in my view and need a bit of thinking about.

The first point to make is that to be considered an "inspired" leader on the battlefield it would have been necessary for that person to have done something really exceptional as a "field" commander first. Take Henry V of England, for example. His reputation comes entirely from the fact that he won a famous victory against all the odds at Agincourt in 1415. But what else did he do? He certainly didn't win another major set-piece battle in his life-time (not least because Agincourt was so devastating to the French). And, at Agincourt itself he did not have a great military reputation prior to the battle so he would only have a "field" rating at that point in time. The "inspired" rating would only be appropriate for him in subsequent battles.

In addition we also have to sort out the political aspects from the purely military ones (which is not always easy). The timing and nature of Henry V's victory at Agincourt put him in a very dominant position in France whereas the earlier victories of Edward, the Black Prince
were less decisive in political terms. But that shouldn't be allowed to "muddy the waters" with regards to our military assessments of individuals.

And, of course, there has been a large dollop of myth-making, both individual and national, about someone like Henry V, due to writers like Shakespeare and more modern wartime propagandists, so there is a danger of retrospectively attributing qualities to individuals that were not appropriate at the time.

So I do think there is a "grey area" here for some of these characters. On balance, I think Henry V is worthy of his "inspired" status, but I would put him behind individuals such as Edward IV and Saladin.

[Aryaman]

I think Charles of Anjou despite some setbacks in his many fights, could qualify as an inspired leader, as won most of his battles in his long military life

[stockwellpete]

I think Charles of Anjou despite some setbacks in his many fights, could qualify as an inspired leader, as won most of his battles in his long military life

OK, thanks. I will add him to the list.

[Aryaman]

Another, non Western, leader worth adding would be Ottoman Sultan Murad II, military reforms and the victories of Varna and Kosovo to his credit

[TheGrayMouser]

Hmm, not sure about your definition of inspired. On the one hand you cite they must have had a decisive "field battles" but at the same time wouldnt have been "inspired" until after such an event. For example Henry V. I have no doudt he was inspiring prior to Agincourt as he was an experianced warrior by 16, campaigned in Wales and even took an arrow thru the face. Certainly he commanded the respect of his vassals and common soldiers. Actually, you can say Agincourt was less than inspiring as he allowed his army to be dogged and run down and forced to fight where only the power of the defence AND the French less than imaginitive tactics allowed him victory . (OH and MUD helped too)
I think depending too much on "field battles" isnt the best aproach, especially in the medieval times where the confidence/charisma and actual prowess of a leader was as least as important vs chesslike manervering of units around.(if it ever was) Also there really arnt a whole lot of pitched battles in the ist place and it neglects the small scale operations / maneveurs /assaults of strong point /castles etc that really charactorized medieval warefare. Richard 1 is know for "field battles" in the Holy land but his defences and offenses in the Vexin are what confirmed he was a great leader.