Charge Question

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:14 am

A Unit of Bow armed MF declares a charge against a FRAG'd unit. The target fails its CT for being charged while FRAG'd and breaks. The MF Bow is now supposed to complete its charge move, but within its reach is a unit of HF. What happens? The MF could not charge the HF without making a CMT and no CMT was made (if it were a skirmish unit this would force/allow it to stop without making contact), but I don't see any thing about other units that might need to make CMTs to charge certain units.

If it were pursuit the MF could make a CMT to avoid contact, but it is not really pursuit when you haven't made your original charge move.

Thanks,
James

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 4:40 am

See Declaration of Charges on page 52, right hand column, last sentence. No CMT is required for the MF to charge into the HF. Conversely, there is no mechanism for the MF to avoid charging into the HF, because (from what you have said) the HF only became a charge target due to friends routing.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:18 am

zoltan wrote:See Declaration of Charges on page 52, right hand column, last sentence. No CMT is required for the MF to charge into the HF. Conversely, there is no mechanism for the MF to avoid charging into the HF, because (from what you have said) the HF only became a charge target due to friends routing.

It only says you need not take the test (and cannot take the test). It does not say you can charge without the test.

PAge 60 says MF shooters must pass the test to charge the HF. If they don't take a test then they haven't passed a test and cannot charge.

Page 60 for skirmishers says skirmishers still charge, but stop 1 MU from the target, if the original target evaded.

petedalby · Post by **petedalby** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:54 am

The bit that is missing here is that the charging MF must still pass a CMT to charge the Fragged BG - assuming the Fragged Bg is not skirmishers.

Check out Page 60.

So having successfully tested to charge the Fragged BG - yes, I believe the MF would continue on to hit the HF.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 11:31 am

petedalby wrote:The bit that is missing here is that the charging MF must still pass a CMT to charge the Fragged BG - assuming the Fragged Bg is not skirmishers.

Check out Page 60.

So having successfully tested to charge the Fragged BG - yes, I believe the MF would continue on to hit the HF.

Of course they might be charging the flank/rear of the fragged unit, which does not need a test.

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 5:10 pm

Sorry, the FRAG'd BG was pesky skirmishing LF. That one We looked up since we knew MF Bow had to CMT to charge in some cases.

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:06 pm

If a CMT was not passed before the charge they cannot charge an uncovereed BG for which a CMT to charge is needed.

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:22 pm

So the charge would be cancelled?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 6:57 pm

Since the charge must have caused the LF to route so as to make the HF a target it cannot be cancelled, but also cannot be completed.

Which really doesn't help.

I believe they would stop 1 MU short of the HF.

nikgaukroger · Post by **nikgaukroger** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:15 pm

zoltan wrote:See Declaration of Charges on page 52, right hand column, last sentence. No CMT is required for the MF to charge into the HF. Conversely, there is no mechanism for the MF to avoid charging into the HF, because (from what you have said) the HF only became a charge target due to friends routing.

As we have now learnt that the BG initially being charged was a LF I beleive Stephen's point above applies.

And for other cases Pete's comment will apply:

petedalby wrote: The bit that is missing here is that the charging MF must still pass a CMT to charge the Fragged BG - assuming the Fragged Bg is not skirmishers.

Check out Page 60.

So having successfully tested to charge the Fragged BG - yes, I believe the MF would continue on to hit the HF.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:16 pm

So to sum up:

1. if the fragmented unit is skirmishers, no CMT is neeed for the MF bow to declare a charge, and they must charge into any new target revealed (to comply with the general rules on charging).

2. if the fragmented unit is NOT skirmishers, a CMT is needed for the MF bow to declare a charge, and they must charge into any new target revealed (to comply with the general rules on charging).

So be careful when contemplating charging a fragmented unit with MF bow if enemy HF are nearby!

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:02 pm

Some things that jumped out from the rules -

* LF/LH would make contact with the formed unit too, not stop 1MU away.
* No VMD for chargers if their targets BREAK, only if all their targets evade. Technically then one Breaking and one evading would mean no VMD.

So it at least initially safe if the HF is outside of your base move distance.

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:32 pm

Yep. The particular scenario you presented ia certainly quirky and an exception to the usual game play in a number of ways.

grahambriggs · Post by **grahambriggs** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:38 am

I tink this is the part of the rules you want, in the 'declaration of charges' section at the front of impact:

"If a CMT is required to make a charge against certain troops, it must be taken if required for any of the battle groups that can be „legally‟ contacted in the chosen direction of charge, including by stepping forward bases. It need not and cannot be taken for those that can only be contacted if another battle group evades or routs."

I think the last sentence in particular shows that the MF do not need to test if the fragged skirmishers are the only unit in the way.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 2:18 pm

grahambriggs wrote:I tink this is the part of the rules you want, in the 'declaration of charges' section at the front of impact:

"If a CMT is required to make a charge against certain troops, it must be taken if required for any of the battle groups that can be „legally‟ contacted in the chosen direction of charge, including by stepping forward bases. It need not and cannot be taken for those that can only be contacted if another battle group evades or routs."

I think the last sentence in particular shows that the MF do not need to test if the fragged skirmishers are the only unit in the way.

I've always interpreted that as:

The possibility of contacting troops B if original target A evades or routs does not force the chargers to test to charge A.

If the chargers want to contact B in the event of A evading or routing, they are not allowed to take the test and hence not allowed to contact B.

imanfasil · Post by **imanfasil** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 4:04 pm

The rules on p52 are clear that no test is made for the charge. since there is not a target I can contact (barring evades, breaks) other than skirmishers.

What still is open to imterpretation is what happens when the HF is revealed.

1) I make my charge move like normal contacting the unit with no chance to stop.

2) I am not allowed to make contact beacuase I didn't pass a CMT.

I have heard arguments for both sides with logic. I think it all depends what p52 is trying to say. I think it is saying that hard to charge troops fully concealed by friends do not keep those easy to charge friends safe. With how interpenetrations work I think this makes the most sense. Your scary pike behind your weak MF offer them no protection against me. Others apparently read it as some kind of a double dog dare to charge into a deathtrap... rather than poor troop deployment.

lawrenceg · Post by **lawrenceg** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 7:43 pm

imanfasil wrote:The rules on p52 are clear that no test is made for the charge. since there is not a target I can contact (barring evades, breaks) other than skirmishers.

What still is open to imterpretation is what happens when the HF is revealed.

1) I make my charge move like normal contacting the unit with no chance to stop.

2) I am not allowed to make contact beacuase I didn't pass a CMT.

I have heard arguments for both sides with logic. I think it all depends what p52 is trying to say. I think it is saying that hard to charge troops fully concealed by friends do not keep those easy to charge friends safe. With how interpenetrations work I think this makes the most sense. Your scary pike behind your weak MF offer them no protection against me. Others apparently read it as some kind of a double dog dare to charge into a deathtrap... rather than poor troop deployment.

Has this been clarified in FOG 2?

philqw78 · Post by **philqw78** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 9:01 pm

zoltan · Post by **zoltan** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 12:13 am

imanfasil wrote:I think it all depends what p52 is trying to say.

I think it says that MF bow who would normally require a CMT to charge HF, do not have to CMT and will charge into the HF due to their continued enthusiasm following breaking fragmented enemy.

rogerg · Post by **rogerg** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 11:48 am

We have always read it that because no test was taken, the MF bow cannot charge into the HF, so will stop short after driving off the skirmishers.

We rarely see this situation. The HF are likely to charge if the MF bow stop 1MU away. In practice players normally opt to have the bow stand and shoot rather than charge.