Soviet Uber Conscripts

tmoj2000 · Post by **tmoj2000** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 1:26 pm

Playing in MP, my opponent is buying hordes of conscript. They come with a strength of 15, cost only 60 points and they deal some mega damage including to tanks in open ground.....

Seems to me they are way owerpowered

Kerensky · Post by **Kerensky** » Sun Sep 11, 2011 10:31 pm

Like all extreme equipment, conscripts can pose a challenge to overcome.
Try purchasing less expensive equipment with strong soft attack values and high ammunition amounts (Low end Panzer IVs, or infantry with artillery support), and remember that the weakness of the conscript is the core size limit.

This assuming you're playing on a balanced map, that is. I cannot speak for custom content.

Danzig · Post by **Danzig** » Mon Sep 12, 2011 9:16 am

I agree that the conscripts seems to be a bit cheap compared to the value (but not overly so). It very much depends on the scenario and the number of slots available to the russians. A more fair price might be 70-75 prestige point or so (or perhaps keep the cost at a bit lower attack value). The main function of the conscipts should be to slow down german advance and soak up attacks, so the Guards and SU´s can go in for the kill afterwards.

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:38 am

I'm still keeping an eye on this. However, as of yet I have not seen a swarm of Conscripts that have made me petition for a cost of 70 to 75

Molve · Post by **Molve** » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:46 am

When you say you're keeping an eye on this, Razz, do you mean your own eye or the eyes of testers with less PC experience?

Just because you - who I take to know the ins and outs of this game very well - haven't seen an issue; does not mean your customers aren't seeing it.

Cheers!

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 2:42 am

Molve wrote:When you say you're keeping an eye on this, Razz, do you mean your own eye or the eyes of testers with less PC experience?

Just because you - who I take to know the ins and outs of this game very well - haven't seen an issue; does not mean your customers aren't seeing it.

Cheers!

That is correct.
However you are the first to complain.
Can you tell us what map you were using?

Danzig · Post by **Danzig** » Wed Sep 14, 2011 8:58 am

I have just checked the stats for the russian infantry and the key stats are as follows:

Conscript / Regular / Guards
Cost: 60 / 81 / 164
Str.: 15 / 10 / 10
Ammo: 6 / 7 / 6
S. att.: 1 / 4 / 4
H. att.: 1 / 1 / 6
Ini.: 0 / 1 / 2
Gr. def.: 2 / 6 / 8
Clo. def.: 2 / 2 / 2

The conscripts don´t look so terrifying on paper, but it is the 15 strength points, that makes them very valuable and useful, if used correct.
The germans will often need to use three or more attacks on a single unit in order to kill it... and that saves your more pricely units from harm.
Perhaps the costs are ok balanced afterall, as long as the russians do not have a very large number of slots avaiable?

tmoj2000 · Post by **tmoj2000** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:21 am

I am more shocked by the fact that a couple of conscripts in attack are enough to take out an infantry in a city, or a tank in open ground.. The damage they do is amazing in my experience

Note that this issue arises only in MP.. In single play mode that is not a problem

Fimconte · Post by **Fimconte** » Thu Sep 15, 2011 11:49 am

Which tank, and was it a single conscript or mass attack?

Razz1 · Post by **Razz1** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 3:38 am

Experience plays a part too.

And a tank should never be in a city.

Fimconte · Post by **Fimconte** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 4:00 am

He mentioned open ground, but I find it hard to believe in Tiger I/II or Panthers taking significant damage from Conscripts on "Clear".

Molve · Post by **Molve** » Fri Sep 16, 2011 8:31 am

Well, losing even a single strength point to conscripts is probably considered unacceptable (to the german commander).

Even if no strength is lost, the fact remains that you could be surrounded by three units for a measly 180 prestige, preventing resupply and requiring probably your entire ammo just to blast away.

This latter case is probably okay, considering that pretty much any other german unit can help out.

The problem is that Panzer Corps currently have a very swingy combat engine - meaning that it might just be a viable strategy of zerging conscripts and hoping for a lucky result. I haven't tested conscripts vs Tiger IIs, but it wouldn't surprise me if a lucky string of random numbers mean the conscripts do real damage to the Tiger II.

If this is the case, the problem isn't the conscripts (the unit or its statistics); the problem is the much more general issue of very swingy combat outcomes, something that can't be tweaked in the equipment file. You need a patched core game engine for this (as well as several other issues discussed here in parallel).

Fimconte · Post by **Fimconte** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 5:55 am

Out of 75 Attacks on a Tiger II on Clear Terrain, surrounded by 3 Conscripts, 1 Conscript attacks, the Tiger II took:
2x 2 damage
13x 1 Damage

Conscripts have a 5% Chance to Kill 5% Chance to Suppress on Clear Terrain vs the Tiger II.

While not a huge sample size, it indicates that Conscripts damaging Tiger II's is quite rare.

Molve · Post by **Molve** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:39 am

Fimconte wrote:Out of 75 Attacks on a Tiger II on Clear Terrain, surrounded by 3 Conscripts, 1 Conscript attacks, the Tiger II took:
2x 2 damage
13x 1 Damage

Conscripts have a 5% Chance to Kill 5% Chance to Suppress on Clear Terrain vs the Tiger II.

While not a huge sample size, it indicates that Conscripts damaging Tiger II's is quite rare.

Thank you for your efforts!

impar · Post by **impar** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:20 am

Nice test.

However it opens a question, how many turns does a Tiger II takes to kill those three Conscripts units?

tmoj2000 · Post by **tmoj2000** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:58 am

Fimconte wrote:Out of 75 Attacks on a Tiger II on Clear Terrain, surrounded by 3 Conscripts, 1 Conscript attacks, the Tiger II took:
2x 2 damage
13x 1 Damage

Conscripts have a 5% Chance to Kill 5% Chance to Suppress on Clear Terrain vs the Tiger II.

While not a huge sample size, it indicates that Conscripts damaging Tiger II's is quite rare.

Right... Why not use the Maus as a reference ?

Try any german tank up to (but not including ) panther or any italian tank

Kriegsheld · Post by **Kriegsheld** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 12:49 pm

I think impar makes the right point. Because the conscripts come at 15 str, even the best German tank cannot hope to shoot its way out of an encirclement by three conscripts in less than three turns. If you use other German units to help free it, the more important attacks cannot be made. It seems to me that the German tanks, especially the later model ones, could have their soft attack values tweaked upward by a few points anyway. They seem a little underpowered there. Also, I wonder if the conscripts should come at 15 str. Isn't the point of conscripts that they are cheap, not necessarily extremely effective?

impar · Post by **impar** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 1:54 pm

Kriegsheld wrote:I think impar makes the right point. Because the conscripts come at 15 str, even the best German tank cannot hope to shoot its way out of an encirclement by three conscripts in less than three turns. If you use other German units to help free it, the more important attacks cannot be made. It seems to me that the German tanks, especially the later model ones, could have their soft attack values tweaked upward by a few points anyway. They seem a little underpowered there. Also, I wonder if the conscripts should come at 15 str. Isn't the point of conscripts that they are cheap, not necessarily extremely effective?

Yep. Was thinking about the 15 strength when clicking on Submit for my last post.

The 15 strength makes sense from a historical pov?

Fimconte · Post by **Fimconte** » Sat Sep 17, 2011 7:35 pm

Actually majority of the cases the Tiger II still inflicted 7-8 damage, minimum being 3, maximum 11.
So it would most of the time it would take 2 turns for a single Tiger II to clear a Conscript alone.

Regardless it's somewhat of an irrelevant issue, since tanks shouldn't travel alone.
Infantry and Artillery should be close behind and a Combined Arms attack will clear those Conscripts with little damage taken.

tmoj2000 wrote: Right... Why not use the Maus as a reference ?

Try any german tank up to (but not including ) panther or any italian tank

Maus is too immobile to be a viable choice.

And you didn't give any reference to which tanks you had issue with, so considering that several popular MP scenarios are Late-War ones, Tiger II was the obvious choice.
As for Italian tanks... They are paper, so why anyone would use them for anything other than cannon fodder is beyond me.

tmoj2000 · Post by **tmoj2000** » Thu Sep 22, 2011 10:59 am

Fimconte wrote:Actually majority of the cases the Tiger II still inflicted 7-8 damage, minimum being 3, maximum 11.
So it would most of the time it would take 2 turns for a single Tiger II to clear a Conscript alone.

Regardless it's somewhat of an irrelevant issue, since tanks shouldn't travel alone.
Infantry and Artillery should be close behind and a Combined Arms attack will clear those Conscripts with little damage taken.

tmoj2000 wrote: Right... Why not use the Maus as a reference ?

Try any german tank up to (but not including ) panther or any italian tank
Maus is too immobile to be a viable choice.

And you didn't give any reference to which tanks you had issue with, so considering that several popular MP scenarios are Late-War ones, Tiger II was the obvious choice.
As for Italian tanks... They are paper, so why anyone would use them for anything other than cannon fodder is beyond me.

The Tiger II is an irrelevant choice.... Even IS2 soviet tanks which cost about 14 times more than conscripts have trouble inflicting more than 1 point of damage on the beast (not to mention the best soviet artillery which barely seems to scrape the paint). Compared to that the conscripts seem like an extremely good deal, all the more sinxe if they manage to catch mr Tiger in a forest or city they will beat him up badly... something no soviet or allied tank can ever do