New to FoG -- Swiss

[DruOz]

Hi!

Just getting started in FoG.

Here's my long post summary

1. My gaming background
2. Army Choice and scale
3. Looking for players/teachers in Canberra, Australia
4. What miniature supplier to use?
5. Proposed Army List

1. Gaming Background

I used to play WRG 7th back in the day, along with other historicals (Fire and Fury, Sword and Flame, etc), but not for the past 10 odd years. Mostly been on the dark side since then (non-historicals), but don't hold it against me, you might get a rash

2. Army Choice and Scale.

Anyway, my favourite period is the formation of the Swiss Cantons and the Burgundian Wars. A guy at work wants to start FoG as well, and low and behold, he's got the makings of a Burgundian army! So, Swiss it is, for my first foray. He has 15mm, which dictates the scale (I used to be 25mm for WRG and 15mm for Fire and Fury, so while I like the look of 25mm more, the larger scale of conflicts is appealing). Also, 15mm seems the most popular, and the $$ will let me get another army or 3 if I find this system floats my boat.

3. Canberra - let's play

Im in Canberra, Australia. I hear there is a big group of FoG gamers here? I'd be keen to meet up and get some demo games in -- I find playing is the best way to learn. So if you want to be my mentor, or I your naive bunny, drop me a PM! Thanks.

4. Mini Supplier?

I've google'd around and it looks like Mirliton is the best 15mm supplier for Swiss 15mm? http://www.mirliton.it/index.php?cName= ... burgundian

That page mostly tells me what to get. For Rene, should I use the Burgundian Command Grp? And for the knights, choose the maxi armour models to best represent the Lorraine knights? What about the light guns? Nothing listed on that page (I anticipate not using them so much but would be good to have for options).

I'd like quality over price for my Swiss, as it's my first army for FoG (and fav period). So if there is a better quality manufacturer than Mirliton, let me know (though, again, I did some research and they seem pretty good).

Thanks

5. A newbie's first crack at FoG Swiss.

Ok, the proposed Dru-the-Newbie list.

Ive read the rules a few times and tried to draw on some of my historical experience, but I fully admit I may be off the ball in my list selection. Constructive comments and suggestions are very welcome!

1476 (Burgundian Wars) Swiss List, 15mm (800pts)

2x FC
TC
5x 8 BG Pike
2x 4 BG Halb
4 BG Mtd Xbow
6 BG Xbow
6 BG Handgunners
2x 4 BG Handgunners
Rene, Ally TC
6 BG Knights (Ally)

800 pts.

Cheers,
Dru

[DruOz]

Weird, I have a german truck as an icon.

Anyway, I was browsing galleries and noticed this rather splendid 'camp'.

http://fieldofglory.free.fr/picture.php ... ategory/21

Anyone know where the tent can be sourced? It's excellent! (assuming 15mm? if not, other links to similiar for 15mm would be most appreciated).

Thanks,
Dru the German Truck (?!)

[batesmotel]

I think the tent is from Baueda. Others I know that use the Swiss list haven't found the ally to be worthwhile and have gone with a pure Swiss list. Generally I've seen all the LF run in 4s to bulk up the army and usually one 4 base BG of halberds per block of pike.

Chris

[marty]

Hi

I'm in Oz but not in canberra. There is definitely a FOG crowd down there but I dont know if they frequent this forum. A better bet would perhaps be the OZ_FOG Yahoogroup. If you are ever out Sydney way I'm sure we can line you up with some games and of course MOAB (big comp at Sylvania in Sydney) is coming up soon. There is always a group from Canberra at that one.

Swiss are fun to use

Martin

[nikgaukroger]

You may also like to try the Swiss in FoG:R - if anything the feel more like Swiss than they do in FoG:AM.

BTW there is an Australian FoG Yahoo group - http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/oz_fog/ - which may help you find opponents, etc.

[ravenflight]

Hi, and welcome back to the light.

Only two things that jump out at me:

2X FC's seems excessive. Better to have 1 TC & 1 IC for similar points or 1 TC & 1 FC if you're economically minded.

I like pike blocks in 10's. You're probably safe enough from disruption from shooting but losing 1 element and then losing your + POA is a real pain.

[timmy1]

Nik's comments about FoGR are relevant. I have tried it for Morat/Murten and it works better. However I play FoG Swiss and find it fun. The comment about BGs of 10 and the no allies makes sense. I always play with an IC as it helps the movement and increases your chance of surviving shooting on the way in. Lynda is probably a good person to ask about Swiss as she has used them and is/was the Ladies World Champ. I find using the Handgunners in 6s with a BG of xbow (mtd or foot) as a partner works well (thanks to Steve Hammond, Pete Dalby and David Fairhurst for that lesson).

Watch your flanks as you will be a VERY narrow army!

[DruOz]

Thanks all for the comments!

With an IC, do you then just run 2 generals? Reading the rules, 3-4 generals seems essential for bolstering cohesion - the rules seem to favour 3-4 generals for this reason? But having not yet played a game, maybe I'm not 'getting' it?

I figured the LF would run in front of the pikes, absorbing shooting and teasing opponents into charging - and if they do, they'd run off and leave the enemy in front of Pike blocks? Would this help mitigate my shooting vulnerability to a degree? The points I save on not increasing pike to 10 could be used to buy more LF (for screens and flank/terrain)?

Re flanks. I assume the usual tactic would be to anchor a flank with terrain and run the pike in the historical pattern? (forget the names - Vorhault or such is the reserve). Does this work well in FoG? Also do the halb typically get inserted between the pike or more often as flank protection and reserves?

[timmy1]

IC plus 2 TC is usual. I run the LF on the flanks. With the Pike in 10s you need the Halb in 6s to provide rear support. Terrain is needed to anchor the flanks, especially if you can put the LF in it.

[DruOz]

ok, taking on board the comments, here's a revised list. I've still elected to go with Pikes of 8, but added another unit Pike and a unit of 6 Halb to the earlier mix.Plus other changes (ie: IC):


IC
TC
TC
8 Pike
8 Pike
8 Pike
8 Pike
8 Pike
8 Pike
6 Halb
4 Halb
4 Halb
4 Mtd Xbow
4 Xbow
4 Xbow
6 Handgun
4 Handgun
4 Handgun

798 pts.

6 blocks of pike.
3 units of halb (2 small units for rear support, the larger one for flank support if terrain isn't accomodating).
5 units of LF for screens/flank
and the seems-compulsory unit of harrassing LH.
IC general to keep my LF around as I swagger up the field, and 2 TC's for fight leading/cohesion.


I realise it's very theory-gaming for me right now, having not yet played a game (hopefully my FoG Cherry goes on Thursday), but Im keen to start ordering. Plus these discussions have given some good insight, thanks. Indeed, if anyone has suggestions for improvement, some background/rationale would be invaluable.


edit: also, further suggestions for flank improvement and also forcing engagement would be good. I'd beat a swiss army by killing the light crap and dancing around the pike. Other than good deployment/terrain and running straight at them, is there any other ways to try and force the issue with the Pike? ie: LF making opponens fail tests and charge them, and then charging them in return with the Pike?

[ravenflight]

Sorry about my confusing post earlier - I'm on a phone not a computer so sometimes I become less articulate.

Yes, I meant for you to have 3-4 generals but not 2 FC's - an IC and a TC is a better investment (IMHO) than 2 FC's - but you will need additional generals.

The revised list is good, but I'd consider sacreficing a 4 Halberd to give 2 pike blocks additional pikes. The ones on the flank are going to cop shooting and the ones in the middle will as well, but probably only 1 or 2 hits so wont die from it.

Trust me, you don't want to be going into combat in 3 ranks because of some lucky shooting and unlucky death rolls. Swiss are tough, but aren't gods. I (closely I'll admit) defeated a swiss just recently with a shooting army. By the time he got into my spears he was even factors and overlapped. You'll end up overlapped SOMEWHERE - you don't want to be overlapped AND = or - in POA.

[DruOz]

Good points on the shooting. But I still would like some 8 BG Pike for those 90 degree turns.
I've been playing around and found a list I think would work well and cover all my bases (pun intended)


IC
TC
TC
10 HF Pike
10 HF Pike
10 HF Pike
8 HF Pike
8 HF Pike
8 HF Pike
4 HF Halb
4 HF Halb
4 HF Halb
4 LC with Xbow
8 LF Xbow
4 LF Handgun
4 LF Handgun
4 LF Handgun
4 LF Handgun


800pts

[grahambriggs]

Re forcing engagement, moving first is good to get your pike moving 6MU on the first bound. Your IC gives +2 on PBI so a valid alternative is 4 TCs and a PBI of 0.

Personally I would have pikes in either 8s or 12s. The 10s do give reserves for when you're fighting but no-one in their right mind will fight the Swiss frontally.

You're right that the problem is getting to grips with the enemy while stopping them getting round your flanks. I'd suggest difficult and impassable terrain is good here, to slow the enemy down and you LF are reasonable in difficult. Lighter terrain - rough, uneven - is a problem as you don't have much that can go in it to much effect and the enemy may have troops that can.

Against Burgundy the key thing is to face his chivalry with four deep pike.

[gozerius]

Don't bother with the Lorrainer ally. You already have enough shock troops, and the knights will get isolated fast unless left in reserve. Try for constricting terrain whenever possible. You have got the right idea with the shooters. Intersperse the handgunners and crossbows to increase the chance for the -1 CT. The halbardiers make good rear support and can deal with enemy in terrain, with their +1 POA vs most foot and superiority.

[ravenflight]

Good points on the shooting. But I still would like some 8 BG Pike for those 90 degree turns.
I've been playing around and found a list I think would work well and cover all my bases (pun intended)


IC
TC
TC
10 HF Pike
10 HF Pike
10 HF Pike
8 HF Pike
8 HF Pike
8 HF Pike
4 HF Halb
4 HF Halb
4 HF Halb
4 LC with Xbow
8 LF Xbow
4 LF Handgun
4 LF Handgun
4 LF Handgun
4 LF Handgun


800pts

I like this list...

The good thing about the Halberdiers is that they will be able to give rear support to two units of 8pike. You'll probably want them to do other stuff, but if they have no work to do (for whatever reason) they can still be handy in that role... and give a reserve for when people do try to lap your flanks.

[DruOz]

Do most run the Xbow and Hguns in 4, 6 or 8 bg's?

[ravenflight]

Just my personal view... Handgunners are in 4's and the crossbowmen/bow/slingers in 4 or 8.

Reasons are as follows:

Handgunners aren't as good at dishing out the damage as crossbowmen or bowmen, but give a -1 to the cohesion test even if they don't score any hits. So you 'do your hits' with the crossbow/bows/slingers to cause the test. Any hits from the handgunners are just cream.

The crossbows/bows/slingers are in 4's or 8's because 6's are too easy to get 2 hits on and cause a cohesion test. The 4's are small and thus fragile, but incredibly manoeuvrable. The 8's can handle more damage, but are less manoeuvrable. 6's are the worst of both worlds.

Having said that, if I have only got enough points for 6, I'll happily take them knowing that they are more vulnerable.

[DruOz]

Just noticed (Im new and/or slow?!) that I can field more Xbow if I pick a period prior to Burgundian Wars but after the Pike took over from the Halberd as principal block weapon. So, for tournaments (but not vs my mates Charles the Bold army), I'll be able to field extra xbow LF. Yay!

[muz177]

Mirliton are good figures.

Would suggest you also look at Legio Heroica (out of Italy) - excellent figures

Muz

[DavidT]

I used Mirliton for my Swiss, along with a few Donnington command.
However, I would advise against using the fronk rank pikemen - they may look better with the front rank of pike lowered, but they are a pain to use on the table. Stick to vertical pikes throughout.