Special Elite units.

[Fimconte]

In my current campaign I've noticed that SE units are not always better than their counterparts.
Especially in the PzIII, Early PzIV era, the exchange of 1 Attack for 1 Defense isn't really that good.

More often than not it's better to have higher defence, since it's more useful for frontline units like tanks and infantry.

Also another aspect is that it doesn't make much sense to increase attack values to represent "special training".
For that I'd argue that Initiative would be a better as a bonus stat for SE units, since it represents their superior training when compared to ordinary troops.

Thoughts?

[Horseman]

To me their main bonus is that they're an extra unit to deploy above the unit cap!

There stats aren't really all that special

[TheGrayMouser]

Wait til you earn a new SE unit like a MarkII Tank, in 1944 !

[Horseman]

Wait til you earn a new SE unit like a MarkII Tank, in 1944 !

Now that would be depressing!

[TheGrayMouser]

Wait til you earn a new SE unit like a MarkII Tank, in 1944 !

Now that would be depressing!

I took it as a sarcastic gesture from High Command. "Good job Herr General on your mediocre victory, here is an old jelopi as a reward".

[Kerensky]

Well the reason that happens is because elite bonus units are taken from the pool of available units, and none of them have expiring dates, they're all 1/1/46.

This can be patched in, either in the upcoming patch or saved in a future one.

Would it bother anyone if SE units expired? For example, by 1/1/1945 only the IVF2, IVH, IVJ IIIL, IIIN, IIIM, Panthers and Tigers will be available, dropping the early IIIs and IVs models.

[Horseman]

Well the reason that happens is because elite bonus units are taken from the pool of available units, and none of them have expiring dates, they're all 1/1/46.

This can be patched in, either in the upcoming patch or saved in a future one.

Would it bother anyone if SE units expired? For example, by 1/1/1945 only the IVF2, IVH, IVJ IIIL, IIIN, IIIM, Panthers and Tigers will be available, dropping the early IIIs and IVs models.

It wouldn't bother me

[Kerensky]

Well unit availability dates are all directly tied to the equipment file, so any changes would only come from a patch, but with this current patch already so close, this may have to wait. I'll leave this topic open for discussion, but if no one has any objections, I'm certain we can address this issue sooner or later by tweaking the equipment file.

[Longasc]

I only got 1 special unit in my first campaign till the very end.
You can have 3 at max. Get them early and it's quite the edge.

Victories could be the currency. Decisive victories would contribute more than minor victories. Say 3 points vs 1, every 5 points you can request an Elite unit.
I just think there are many other more important things that have priority.

[Horseman]

I only got 1 special unit in my first campaign till the very end.
You can have 3 at max. Get them early and it's quite the edge.

Victories could be the currency. Decisive victories would contribute more than minor victories. Say 3 points vs 1, every 5 points you can request an Elite unit.
I just think there are many other more important things that have priority.

I never realised how lucky I was to get all three by Sealion 40!

[Molve]

Would it bother anyone if SE units expired? For example, by 1/1/1945 only the IVF2, IVH, IVJ IIIL, IIIN, IIIM, Panthers and Tigers will be available, dropping the early IIIs and IVs models.

Let me ask you a question in return:

Why isn't equipment expiring?

I can't see a single reason why anybody would need to buy or "up"-grade into a PzI already in 1940, let alone be given one as an award.

I'm fully for realistic expiration dates. They don't need to be set especially aggressively. The PzI for instance, can be left around until 1942 if that makes you feel "safer".

Remember that expiration dates are already used in the game; for some reason defeated countries disappear quickly (Poland, Belgium, Greece etc) which only means you need to uncheck the filter checkbox in the editor when you want to model partisan units etc.

Cheers!

[El_Condoro]

SE units were originally SS units and, except for the requirement to name them otherwise, represent SS units. Without getting into discussions about them being fanatics, war criminals etc. they did get the best equipment from what I know of them. Therefore IMO, they should always be the best or, at worst, current equipment when awarded to players. They have the advantage of not costing a slot, but they should *feel* like a reward, too. Therefore, expiration dates seem like a good idea to me.

[Trump2016]

SE units were originally SS units and, except for the requirement to name them otherwise, represent SS units. Without getting into discussions about them being fanatics, war criminals etc. they did get the best equipment from what I know of them. Therefore IMO, they should always be the best or, at worst, current equipment when awarded to players. They have the advantage of not costing a slot, but they should *feel* like a reward, too. Therefore, expiration dates seem like a good idea to me.

why don;t they call them SS units then?

[deadtorius]

International laws in certain countries that have outlawed reference to SS or Nazi etc. If it had stayed in the game then PZC would have been banned in those countries and reduced the available market to Slitherine.
There was a post back in the original beta thread about how you can go into a file and manually change their name to SS or whatever you want them to be called in game. Perhaps one of the devs can repost that one again.

[Trump2016]

International laws in certain countries that have outlawed reference to SS or Nazi etc. If it had stayed in the game then PZC would have been banned in those countries and reduced the available market to Slitherine.
There was a post back in the original beta thread about how you can go into a file and manually change their name to SS or whatever you want them to be called in game. Perhaps one of the devs can repost that one again.

OK I guess, in Canada, SS formations have always been called SS formations etc, its is very confusing to refer to elite units in a non-historical manner.

[impar]

For that I'd argue that Initiative would be a better as a bonus stat for SE units, since it represents their superior training when compared to ordinary troops.

Can agree.

[Molve]

OK I guess, in Canada, SS formations have always been called SS formations etc, its is very confusing to refer to elite units in a non-historical manner.

Nazy symbols are much less controversial the further away from Germany you get. That doesn't mean they aren't still acutely controversial in Germany, though. And Slitherine obviously wants to sell their game to that market too.

[Molve]

For that I'd argue that Initiative would be a better as a bonus stat for SE units, since it represents their superior training when compared to ordinary troops.

Can agree.

Well, initiative is already covered by experience.

Not that I disagree, but if initiative is supposed to the SE units main advantage, then they should start out with gold stars of experience.

Don't add two separate sources of initiative bonuses, is what I'm saying.

[El_Condoro]

Well, initiative is already covered by experience.

It is, but only makes a difference to initiative from 4+ bars for infantry and 2+ bars for tanks. It affects ground defense earlier and ground attack at higher bars.
The screen shots in this thread show it better: viewtopic.php?t=27534

[impar]

For that I'd argue that Initiative would be a better as a bonus stat for SE units, since it represents their superior training when compared to ordinary troops.

Can agree.

Well, initiative is already covered by experience.
Not that I disagree, but if initiative is supposed to the SE units main advantage, then they should start out with gold stars of experience.
Don't add two separate sources of initiative bonuses, is what I'm saying.

A zero-experience SE unit would have +1 initiative compared to a zero-experience regular unit.
A three-experience SE unit would have +1 initiative compared to a three-experience regular unit.